How to Scale Faster with B2B Brand Strategy | JoAnne Gritter | EP 207

JoAnne Gritter, Christian Klepp

JoAnne Gritter  00:00

AI can be used as a tool. It should not replace thinking and actually talking to your customers and your employees and your sales team. So you can use AI as a crutch to to like, ask it for ideas, idea generation. You can use it for deep research on your on your audience, and stuff like that. But nothing replaces the gold standard of talking to people. I see this in messaging misalignment or content misalignment. If content feels like it’s been written by four different people or completely different companies, that’s a red flag.

Christian Klepp  00:37

This is a common scenario for B2B Marketers. You launch campaigns, hit the deadlines and fill the pipeline. It all looks great on paper, but something is still off internal messaging discussions resurface. Campaigns feel shallow and reactive, and when you ask people what the brand stands for, you get 50 different answers. So what can B2B Marketers do when their marketing is outpacing their brand strategy? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to JoAnne Gritter, who will be answering this question. She’s a member of the leadership team at DDM Marketing Communications that provides integrated marketing solutions to drive business success. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is and here we go. JoAnne Gritter, welcome to the show.

JoAnne Gritter  01:25

Hi Christian. Happy to be here.

Christian Klepp  01:27

We you know, we had such a wonderful, like, pre-interview conversation. I almost feel like we’re neighbors or something, and something to that extent. But I’m, I’m really, like, happy to have you on the show, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because this topic is, I’m a little bit biased because I am in the branding space, so it’s a bit near and dear to my heart, but it’s also something that’s extremely important, because you’ll agree. I mean, you, I know you’ll agree because you wrote an article about it.

JoAnne Gritter  01:54

Yeah

Christian Klepp  01:55

It’s something that marketing teams tend to overlook. And good, goodness gracious me, I’m gonna, like, stop keeping people in suspense. We’ll just jump right in all right.

JoAnne Gritter  02:04

Okay

Christian Klepp  02:04

So JoAnne, you’re on a mission to provide integrated marketing solutions that drive B2B business success. So for this conversation, let’s focus on this topic, how brand strategy helps B2B organizations to realign for long term growth. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question. In our previous conversation, our previous discussion, you talked about how marketing without a brand is a strategy without a soul. Could you please explain what you meant by that?

JoAnne Gritter  02:36

So I just made the comparison kind of to the whole human, as in, like the brand is your soul, meaning like your values, what drives you, why you’re here, what differentiates you, what makes you different than the person standing next to you, whereas, like marketing is your body in action, or action in general, where you hopefully, if you if you’re a trustworthy person, what is, what are your values internally are matching your actions externally? And that is often where we see a divergent in companies, because they don’t think about those as like two sides of the same coin. It is really important that you make sure that you know the direction that you’re going as a company and what you stand for and who you’re there to support or serve, and what markets you’re there to do, and like your whole company, everybody that’s part of interfacing with customers understands that and is and is speaking the same language.

Christian Klepp  03:37

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I suppose the the follow up question to that is like, where do you see a lot of, like, marketing teams go wrong. Because, like, you know, more often than not, a lot of teams are like, Okay, we’ve we’ve implemented the campaigns check. We’re generating results and driving pipeline or filling the pipeline, rather check. So where does it all go wrong?

JoAnne Gritter  04:00

If you are not paying attention to your branding, you can have a lot of activity without a lot of traction. So or you can have a lot of different messages going out that seem not cohesive or fragmented. And so you can or more examples you can have, like your sales folks going out and telling different stories about about what your company stands for and what you do and how you’re different, that creates a lot of waste, because then you’re continuously trying to get more activity and more campaigns going more sales people out there, because you’re not getting the quality leads that you need, because nobody really knows what you stand for. Everybody says it a little bit differently, and that goes for customer service too. Branding. People think about branding as a marketing problem, or a marketing, you know, teams problem. But if, let’s say part of your brand is your brand identity or values is to put the customer. First, if you don’t really solidify that from your sales team and your customer support team, then there would be a mismatch there, right then you’re just putting out into the world that customers first, but that doesn’t match up with what the customer is experiencing.

Christian Klepp  05:16

Yeah, there’s certainly some kind of misalignment there, and you touched on it, like, briefly. It’s interesting to me, like, even in my own experience, one of the telltale signs of that is when you ask people within the organization, well, what makes you different? And you get 50 different answers, and some of them are similar, and some of them are completely, like, different. And it’s like, okay, yep, okay, I see where this is going, or to your to your other point, when sales teams are having those discovery calls, and you listen back to some of those recordings, which I hope you marketing people out there are doing, and you listen to the way that the sales deal with objections, and maybe the procurement team or people like, you know, on the prospect side, they’re probably not phrasing it exactly the way I’m going to say it right now, but like, but they probably are asking something to the effect of, okay, what makes you different from vendor B, C and D, right? What is different about your solution? Like, why are you charging this guy? Why are your rates like, this high.

JoAnne Gritter  05:16

Right. Absolutely. And if they have different answers, or if you go and you listen in on four different sales calls and they’re all a little bit different, then that tells you have a branding issue that people don’t fully understand your brand and how you’re different and who you support and serve.

Christian Klepp  05:16

Yep, absolutely, absolutely. So you’ve touched on it a little bit, but like, tell us about some more of these. I’m going to call them red flags, right? That signal when marketing has outrun brand strategy.

JoAnne Gritter  05:16

Sure, I see this in messaging misalignment or content misalignment. If content feels like it’s been written by four different people or completely different companies, that’s a red flag. If, like we mentioned, your sales team talks about your company completely differently, it’s okay that they put their own little spin on it, as long as you’re still hitting like the purpose of your company, why you’re here, how you serve whatever your target audience or audiences are what your values are. If that’s not coming through in in those different places, then you may have a brand issue, or your training issue, or your brand is not being carried out through the company. So when you have a solid brand, it should be, should be repeated in in like your onboarding process, in HR kind of things, in performance conversations, in obviously, your sales and marketing and your customer service, so that everybody is aligned to that brand, and so that there’s a common message, common theme, because repeatability is is super important. Consistency is super important in marketing. I’m sure a lot of people have heard that it takes multiple multi multiple times of hearing the same message for it to actually resonate, and if they’re hearing multiple different messages, it’s causes confusion and a lack of trust in whatever the company is offering.

Christian Klepp  05:16

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. JoAnne, I’ve got a I just thought of another fall off question, and you’ll indulge me here. Um, you know it, I know it. But let’s, let’s clear the air here for a second. Because I’ve been hearing this like, and I’m sure you have as well, in the B2B world, it’s just been thrown around, like, very loosely. Let’s clear the air here. Like, what do you mean by brand strategy, because I’ve heard people, especially at senior level, say, like, Yeah, we don’t need branding. We’ve got a logo and we’ve got a website. We’re good, so maybe just clear the air on that one, please.

JoAnne Gritter  05:16

Well, brand strategy is, let’s see, like, I think of strategy in like, four or three different tiers. Like, we have your business strategy, it’s how you win in the marketplace. Then you have your brand strategy, which is positions you in the market and in the minds of your consumers or your customers. And then your marketing strategy is how you take that and communicate it out and you deliver that message in multiple different channels. So if you have marketing running without, without laddering up to that business strategy and and brand strategy, then it’s just, it’s just running and putting stuff out there. So it’s just activity without, without purpose and strategy. So like a brand strategy is so much more than just a lot of people think about it as their logo, their identity suite, whatever, but there should be research that goes into it. They should be stakeholder analysis. They should talk to your customers and kind of understand what they value about about your company compared to another company. So then, using. Their language in some of your brand messaging is super helpful. So if you have like, customers that say, you know, like, I just love working with, you know, Company X, Y and Z, because the people are great. They’re super responsive. They they get me what I need, etc. Like, using some of that as part of your brand is going to be really important. So like, a strategy may may include, like, the focus, the brand, promise your your core values can be part of that. The naming can be part of that. Obviously, the the design part that a lot of folks actually think about and listen or think about and recall would be, like the visual identity that also needs to be consistent, from your logo to your fonts to your colors, and then like, multiple touch points on that, like, again, like repeating that consistency from like the stationary, the collateral, the assets, all that stuff, but then also making sure that the messaging and the voice carries throughout your company, past past your your marketing team, past your sales team.

Christian Klepp  05:16

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I mean, I like to tell people that all of these things that you mentioned, especially the visual aspect, the the sexy part of it, right, like the the visual identity, the logo, the web design and all that. It’s the end result. It’s one of the outcomes of right branding, right?

JoAnne Gritter  05:16

That doesn’t come out of a vacuum, right? You don’t show a designer that’s like, I’m super excited about the color red, so we’re gonna do it’s what do our customers, current customers, feel about us, and what do we want our prospective customers to feel about us? And then there’s a lot of strategy behind that.

Christian Klepp  05:16

That’s right, that’s right. I’m gonna move on to the topic of key pitfalls to avoid. So what are some of these key pitfalls that B2B Marketing Teams should avoid, and what should they do instead?

JoAnne Gritter  05:16

So pitfalls that I see is companies teams that get really excited about certain trends. I’m just going to pick on Tiktok. There’s time and a place for Tiktok, but like, for B2B, they’re like, oh, man, everybody’s on Tiktok, or this latest, you know, social media platform, channel, we really got to get on there. It’s or we got to use AI in some specific way without, like, thinking about the strategy behind that and just like going forward, because you know that that’s the hottest trend right now. So always make sure it ladders up to where your customers are and what you want them to think about you. If you’re a B2B company, it’s likely that your customers are more on LinkedIn than they are on Tiktok. That’s just an example. I can’t say that across the board, but like picking picking things that are always centered on on your customer and your brand are super important. So that’s a pitfall, and then what to do about it? Also treating the brand as a one time exercise, like set it and forget it, kind of thing. A lot of people are just like, Okay, we did the brand. We got a great logo, we got stationery, we even got PowerPoints that are branded and then never think about it again, except for, like, just the, you know, the colors and the logo on all of your media assets, right? So, but the brand is so much more than that. The brand is so much about, like, how you want them to feel, what the differentiators are, what makes you different, what you deliver and like, how you talk about it, how you position yourself. So like, every bit, every asset that goes out the door, should be aligned to that there should be almost a hierarchy.

Christian Klepp  05:16

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. And I’m gonna throw another follow up question at you, only because I know you can handle you can handle it. You probably hear this a lot, and you hear this a lot, most likely also from marketing teams that perhaps don’t have as much experience in the branding space as you do, and they say things like, JoAnne, you know, we’re looking at our company, and we feel that, you know, the overall look and feel and the direction, it’s not really in line with what we aspire to be. So we’re looking for a revamp. And then, and then, as the conversation progresses, they say, Oh, actually, we want maybe, maybe just a refresh, right? And then you hear another prospect say, Well, you know, we just merged the two companies. So like, what do we do there? So maybe just, just to, again, clear the air, so people don’t throw around these terms so recklessly, what actually is the difference between a brand refresh, a brand revamp, and branding as a result of a merger,

Speaker 1  06:02

like a brand like from scratch, is going to take a lot of different kind of research efforts than like a brand refresh. Like, if you’re doing a brand refresh, then you’re looking at assets that already exist, you know, and and you’re looking at reasons why they might change or are no longer working. So you’re doing more. Of an audit kind of thing, like, what’s different now than it was 20 years ago when we created this brand, and where are we going? Their new leadership? Are they focused on different parts of this like even even DDM, the marketing agency that I work with or that I work for. We, every once in a while, look at our brand, and not just the visuals, but like the things that make us unique. And we say, hey, those are still unique, but we’re talking about them slightly differently now. So we need to take a look at that and change the messaging a little bit. We’re heading in a slightly different direction lately with our creative so let’s, let’s make sure that we’re still in line, so that everything, everything matches. And if they see us on Instagram versus if they see us on LinkedIn or on our website, that it still looks like ABM, you know, and then a merger is slightly different, because you’re putting together two brands, and a lot of times they’re creating a new brand from that, or they might keep one of the brands and then just bring another like, you know, Company X is now a, you know, Company Y brand. And there might be, like a sub. There’s all kinds of different ways hierarchies of brands in that kind of scenario. But more recent one that we did, they created a new brand, which was a combination of the two names, and they completely they went through the whole exercise with the new leadership team. So it’s more similar to like starting from scratch, but also taking bits and pieces that they want to keep from both brands and what’s working. So you kind of look at what clients from both brands like about those brands, and make sure that you keep those and you preserve those, and make sure that it’s it’s heading in the direction that the company wants to go a lot of discovery and research and questions,

Christian Klepp  06:16

Absolutely, absolutely. And I love that you keep bringing that up, though, because that is, again, one of these components that people tend to overlook, that this comes with a lot of research. It’s not, as you said, it’s not okay. Here’s the brief. Graphic designers or design team have at it.

JoAnne Gritter  17:07

Right?

Christian Klepp  17:07

Come up with something, something else, great, right? Yeah, my favorite briefs are always the ones that said we want something modern, clean, yet traditional and exciting. It’s like,

JoAnne Gritter  17:17

Oh yes, creative. Make it creative, splashy mean to you?

Christian Klepp  17:25

Yeah, yeah, open to interpretation, I suppose. Why do you believe that inconsistent messaging and internal misalignment cost organizations credibility and dollars? And you did touch on it earlier on the conversation.

JoAnne Gritter  17:41

It’s a misalignment of what you say versus what you do. If you have on your website that you are there to serve X population and that you are like your mission and purpose in in this world is to support that population in in achieving whatever goal, whatever needs that that population needs, but then that customer or population that comes and interacts with your brand does not get that from the people or get that from their experience with your product. Then then that’s a misalignment, and that creates, you know, instant distrust, like you are not following through on, on what your brand promise was, or if you have multiple people saying they’re promising different things and they don’t get that, that’s a lack of trust.

Christian Klepp  18:27

I’m kind of slightly grinning here, although I know that anyone who’s been in this situation probably will not see any humor in it, but like, I’m just thinking about anyone that’s experienced a flight delay,

JoAnne Gritter  18:37

right,

Christian Klepp  18:39

or been trapped at the airport, and whichever airline it is you’re flying with, and you have to deal with ground staff that are either unprofessional and rude or you just have zero transparency. And I’m sure, like, I’ve certainly gone through it like I’ve experienced a 10, 12 hour flight delay, right where I was at the airport until like, one or two in the morning, and then they finally come and say, well, the plane’s not coming.

JoAnne Gritter  19:04

Yeah, that really rocks the brand reputation. I also see that in health care a lot, which, God bless everybody in health care, it’s hard, but like, if all those services are disjointed and the scheduling gives you a different feeling than the doctor gives and trying to do things online, it doesn’t match what your experience is in person. People don’t want to go to that provider anymore. You know, they’re like, this is confusing. I just want help. Just want to get what you’re promising.

Christian Klepp  19:35

It’s a very for lack of a description of fragmented ecosystem.

JoAnne Gritter  19:39

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a bigger issue than we can solve here, but

Christian Klepp  19:43

Yeah, no amount of branding is going to fix that.

JoAnne Gritter  19:47

You got to follow through on it.

Christian Klepp  19:49

That’s absolutely right. That’s absolutely right. Talk to us about how aligning, and you’ve touched on it briefly, how aligning soul and action will help to build. Trust, loyalty and resilience and please provide examples where relevant.

JoAnne Gritter  20:04

Let me think of an example. We work with a very large medical device manufacturer, and we’ve worked with them for 15, probably close to 20 years now. And so 15 years ago, they were very product centric. They also grow by acquisition. So they have, like several different companies that came in under this master global brand. And even though they have the same logo, they still had their own kind of visual identity. They all talked about their stuff differently. And as a result of that, in those different teams, the customers were getting wildly different experiences from this company, even though they were all under the same master company. So they rebranded. We helped them rebrand seven years ago, maybe, and this is a global organization where they brought all their business units under the same brand. They have a very strict, robust brand now. And I’m not saying that everybody needs 100 page brand guidelines. They don’t, but, like they they went all in on branding, and they make all their new employees do their brand training. It’s worked in through their onboarding. It’s worked in through their like, performance conversations, and they have just really exploded and created this, this amazing reputation as a leader.

Christian Klepp  21:25

I’m sorry you’re talking about, you’re talking about real branding, then

JoAnne Gritter  21:27

Real branding. Yes, they are now a leader in their industry. I mean, they were big before, but they have just really exploded in the last seven years since rebranding, and it’s been really helpful for them, because now they still grow by acquisition, but they bring in a new company, and they know what the process is to get them on board, not just from a visual identity, like rebranding all the collateral, like the sales enablement and stuff like that, but bringing the internal teams up to speed about like, what what we stand for, what we hire, like, what kind of values we Look for, so that every customer gets the same experience

Christian Klepp  22:04

from your experience. How did that exercise of helping them to re brand and take all of this because, you know, there’s that situation of taking all the business units and putting them under one roof, so to speak. How did that exercise help to improve them as an organization.

JoAnne Gritter  22:22

It’s been a long time, like in multiple phases. So it improves their organization. It creates a lot of clarity for them. So they’re not like redoing each other’s work, and they’re not all creating the same or they’re they’re not all creating from scratch anymore. They have a they have a similar starting point on, like, the different messaging pillars that they need to hit, even for just their products, you know. So this goes into product messaging and product launch. So like, if they are medical device, they are they want to sell, you know, knee replacements or or stuff along those lines, they know that they need to hit on a couple core values, and they need to make sure that they are targeting the same audience, and that they need to make sure that they that what they’re saying out there aligns with the master brand. Of course, there’s they still need to do the differentiators on the product level, but they also have the full brand that that supports it. So it’s just a higher level like reputation. I like to, I like to compare like branding to your reputation. So that goes along with every product that they bring in.

Christian Klepp  23:32

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. Okay, we get to the part in the conversation. We’re talking about actionable tips. And you’ve, you’ve actually given us quite a bit already, but if we were to summarize it, okay, JoAnne, like, if there was somebody out if there was somebody out there that was listening to this conversation, and they were listening to what you were saying, and they were like, oh my goodness, this is exactly what we’re going through right now, right? I mean, besides contacting you, right, what are like three to five things that you would recommend they do right now to realign for long term growth using brand strategy,

JoAnne Gritter  24:10

I would take a look at what brand strategy you already have, if you have one otherwise kind of creating at least the bones of that. Like, what are our values? What are we focused on? What is our purpose here and mission? And then, like, what are messaging pillars or groups that align with those values? And then once you have those making sure that you have a succinct narrative or story, or even, like an elevator pitch, that everybody is aligned on. Having that is kind of a simple, hopefully a simple thing for you to figure out and align on, and then auditing the customer journey for those promises and values. So like, if you have a customer journey, they’re going from, you know, awareness of you. Or a problem to consideration between you and your company, and, you know, multiple other companies, and then you’re they’re making a decision, then they’re purchasing, then they’re hopefully your customer experience, and your delivery teams are delivering on those promises, and then you’re creating loyalty. So that’s the customer journey. So of these phases are, they are the customers still experiencing the brand that you want them to experience. So that’s like a little audit that you can do. And then from there, also making sure that all of your content that’s out there, from your like your brochures, your website, your sales enablement kind of stuff, making sure that that’s still aligned to the brand and the message that that you want it to and then making sure that, of course, throughout the company, in your like, HR documentation, you’re, I’ve said onboarding a million times, but like, making sure that everybody that’s coming into your organization understands who you are and who you who you serve, and why?

Christian Klepp  26:01

Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s a really good list. And I have to ask you this question, because you know, at the time of the recording, we’re at the end of 2025, and you did bring up AI, so I’m going to bring it up again. How, how has in your experience, from what you’re seeing out there, how has AI impacted brand strategy and all the work that comes along with that.

JoAnne Gritter  26:24

Well, that’s a loaded question, right? So as far as brand strategy, I kind of see it. AI can be used as a tool. It should not replace thinking and actually talking to your customers and your employees and your sales team. So you can use AI as a crutch to to, like, ask it for ideas, idea generation. You can use it for deep research on your on your audience, and stuff like that. But nothing replaces the gold standard of talking to people. So like, the the best resources from that research perspective are your customers, or your prospective customers and your sales team, if you can’t get to those customers, will often hear those like, you know, positive and negatives about your products and services. So getting to those and aligning on stakeholders, AI can be used as you know, you can use it to help think of ideas for like, let me think if you were thinking of like values, like core values, like in and messaging pillars, you can say, hey, you know, I really want it to be something along these lines. We’re circling around on like, exactly right the what the right way to phrase this is. And it can give you 50 different ideas, and you can cross out 45 of them and then land on like the top five that you communicate with your team. Don’t ever take it for rate for like per vatum, sorry, exactly as chat GPT gives you,

Christian Klepp  27:55

at face value.

JoAnne Gritter  27:57

Thank you. I see that that is a lot harder for early career individuals because they don’t have that discernment yet. So they, they will, they will use it as a crutch, and then, like, oftentimes not have that same kind of editing expertise to see what actually works and what doesn’t. So like pairing AI as a tool with with human intelligence and empathy, for sure,

Christian Klepp  28:23

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, at least in from my observation, and this is where I think AI really falls flat, especially when you’re coming up with the verbal expression component of brand strategy. AI doesn’t really have any soul or character, like everything, it turns out, is very, for lack of a better description, lifeless, so, and that’s where the human element, or to your point, the human intervention, can then come into play, because then you can inject that story, you can inject that human emotion, which also is a very crucial component in B2B, right? As much as people like to say, oh, B2B is all factual, right? And I would, I would disagree with that,

JoAnne Gritter  29:06

yeah, it’s, it’s quality over quantity. Now, you know people, people can spot, can spot the AI generated content, and there can be a whole bunch of it, and that can help you in a variety of ways. But if it’s not actually, if it doesn’t sound human speaking or human human sounding, then, then people reject it and they don’t trust it as much.

Christian Klepp  29:28

Okay, get up on your soapbox a status quo that you passionately disagree with, and why?

JoAnne Gritter  29:37

I passionately disagree with data only marketing. So the big push for data driven marketing, I am, I am on board with that at face value, but it still doesn’t tell the whole story, because you can still look at data from, let’s say you did like a. Um, a focus group about about what customers want from a like a beverage or something. I’m thinking of Coca Cola, and they and they say that they they want it to be healthy. They want it to be low sugar. They want it to taste amazing. They want it to make them, you know, feel great, and stuff like that that does not you’re gonna try to create like this Frankenstein kind of soda instead, instead of recognizing that, like, there’s more psychology to this. Like a Coca Cola has, like, a whole traditional, like branding kind of way that, or traditional and emotional way that they make people feel, and that doesn’t show up in the data, necessarily. That doesn’t show up in the performance data. You know that that is a totally different kind of research too.

Christian Klepp  30:51

Yeah, yeah,

JoAnne Gritter  30:55

You know, that’s performance, marketing and branding.

Christian Klepp  30:58

I totally agree. I totally agree that, as much as there is a big camp out there that says the future is data driven now when it comes to B2B Marketing, and I’m like, Yeah,

JoAnne Gritter  31:11

humans are tricky.

Christian Klepp  31:13

We’re not robots. Absolutely, absolutely, okay, here comes the bonus question. So Rumor has it that you like to draw.

JoAnne Gritter  31:23

 I do.

Christian Klepp  31:24

Yes, and from one enthusiastic sketcher to another, I thought, I thought deep and hard about this question. Tell us about one of the most well exciting, yes, but more importantly, one of the most challenging works that you’ve created to date. So what was the theme and subject? What made it so challenging to draw, and what did you learn from that experience when you when you completed it?

JoAnne Gritter  31:50

I really like to find, like, kind of micro moments I have. I have three children at home, and I like to take pictures, or, like, capture, like small moments of, like one of them snuggling the cat, or like holding hands or doing something unexpected. And in, like, not a macro view, but in a micro view of like, the different connections that people have. And then, usually, I’ll take a picture, and then I will sketch those out after they go to sleep and stuff like that. And that’s just kind of my own personal way to, I don’t know it’s it’s therapeutic. It’s a way to see, see the beauty in the world, you know, and to slow down in the moment.

Christian Klepp  32:37

100%. I like to call it Balsam for the soul.

JoAnne Gritter  32:40

Yeah,

Christian Klepp  32:40

all right, I don’t know about you, but like, I like to sketch in the in this very room where we’re doing the recording, and I usually play classical music. So like, show pen, so something like, with with piano. Like, no opera, because that can get a bit too dramatic.

JoAnne Gritter  32:59

I like classical too, when, when I’m focused at classical music, and I also like binaural beats, or it’s more like meditation kind of music. So kind of zone, zone into the moment, instead of all the crazy thoughts that go through your head and all the things you have to do.

Christian Klepp  33:17

Very nice, very nice. One of the things I learned about drawing is pretty much like certain aspects of our professional work, you know, like marketing and branding. It starts with a line, and then you just keep adding the layers, right? And it’s almost the same like when you’re implementing a campaign, you know, some especially nowadays, right? You try to start small first, and do a lot of testing to see if it works. And you scale from there. And I like to, I like to think of drawings that way too. You start, you start not by adding the details. You start like, you know, with a lighter pencil. And there’s a certain, there’s a certain way of holding the pencil tool, right, so you have lesser control. And just, it’s just a bit free flowing. And for me personally, it took me a long time to start drawing like that, because I’m like, No, then I don’t have control of the process. But that’s kind of the point, right? Let go of the perfectionism, right?

JoAnne Gritter  34:18

You outline it first, and then you start filling in. You know that the shadows and the light marks, and then you slowly bring in the detail. I mean, that you’re totally right, that that is like a marketing or branding strategy. You got to outline it first before you go fully in on any specific detail. Otherwise, you’re you may be way off target.

Christian Klepp  34:38

That’s it. That’s it. I mean, JoAnne like I think we just found our next podcast interview topic. But thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please a quick introduction to yourself and how people out they can get in touch with you.

JoAnne Gritter  34:57

JoAnne Gritter, I’m at DDM Marketing and Communications headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA. And I am COO, Vice President of our company. You can get a hold of me at joanneg@teamddm.com or you can just check us out at Teamddm.com

Christian Klepp  35:18

Fantastic, fantastic. And we will be sure to like drop all those links in the show notes. So once again, JoAnne, thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.

JoAnne Gritter  35:27

Thanks, Christian. Bye.

Christian Klepp  35:29

Bye, for now you.