Christian Klepp, Jen Moss

Jen Moss  00:00

Podcasting, especially audio podcasting, I will say, is a sacred space between the ears. You are literally whispering in people’s ears if they don’t like what they’re hearing, if they start to feel like you’re shilling to them, they will yank out the earbuds and it’s game over for you.

Christian Klepp  00:17

If we’re going to be perfectly honest, many brand podcasts are either boring or they just sound like a commercial. To win the hearts and minds of your target audience, you need to create content that serves your listeners and is something they actually want to hear. So how can you achieve that? And what role does B2B Marketing play in producing successful brand podcasts? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Jen Moss, who will be answering that question. She is the Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer of JAR Podcast Solutions, which helps create quality podcasts that earn trust. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, okay, and I’m gonna say, Jen Moss, welcome to the show.

Jen Moss  01:05

Thank you so much for having me.

Christian Klepp  01:07

Great to have you on. We’ve had such a fantastic conversation before. I hit record. I probably should have recorded this earlier, but in any case,

Jen Moss  01:14

Yes, if anyone needs any parenting tips, we got your back.

Christian Klepp  01:18

Absolutely, absolutely that that book is coming out soon on Amazon. I’m just kidding, But Jen, really looking forward to this conversation, because, man, we are going to cover a topic which, you know, might rock the boat a little bit, but it’s all, you know, constructive, and you know, it’s all for the sake of growing in a positive way, right?

Jen Moss  01:35

I think so,

Christian Klepp  01:36

At least I like to think so.

Jen Moss  01:38

That is the goal.

Christian Klepp  01:39

Absolutely, absolutely, all right, so here it comes. So Jen, you’re on a mission to help brands craft story first, podcasts that earn trust, build loyalty and connect deeply with the audiences that matter most. So for today’s conversation, I’d like to zero in on the following topic. Here comes how to fix boring brand podcasts. I know we’ve got a ton to talk about, but let’s kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So what is it about brand podcasting that you wish more people understood? And number two is, where do most brand podcasts go wrong.

Jen Moss  02:22

Okay, so those are both great questions, so that what is a branded podcast is probably a good place to start. A lot of people might think that it’s, you know, the CEO of a company talking about their products and services ad nauseam. And if you happen to want to buy those products and services, maybe you would listen to it, because you could get more information, like, kind of an informational, almost transactional thing. I think that’s what a lot of people imagine when they hear the words branded podcast. However, that there’s a lot more to branded podcasting than that, and a lot of the smarter sort of, I would say, savvy brands, the ones with kind of sophisticated marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, are looking at podcasting as a way to tell deeper stories, engage with conversations that are ongoing in society that really matter so, sort of a chance for the brand to show its stripes a little bit, and an opportunity to offer something to a target audience that is sort of like a kind of a gift. You know, like we’re going to give you something of value that you actually will benefit from or enjoy, learn something from, be emotionally moved by, you know, hear a good story, and it’ll be in an area that the brand cares about, that that kind of ticks the boxes in terms of, like, what are the brand’s values, but is not specifically, and this is very important, is not specifically related to the brand’s products and services, per se. So it’s more like, okay, the brand maybe exists in a certain wider industry, and there’s an issue in that industry that keeps coming up, or a new technology that’s affecting everything, something like that, something that needs to be talked about. And so they’ll, they’ll set out to kind of facilitate those kinds of conversations through their podcasts. And a branded podcast doesn’t need to be just a one on one interview. It could be, it could be a fiction podcast if you were feeling extra frisky and creative that day, you know, if you wanted to do something fun, like I had a conversation with a solar company not that long ago, and we actually pitched them a fiction podcast about a world powered by sun. And because we thought the opportunity for a solar panel company to sponsor a fiction podcast about a world powered by sun like sci-fi would be, would be exciting and different.

Christian Klepp  05:11

How did that go?

Jen Moss  05:12

Yeah, well, we didn’t end up getting that job because they didn’t have the creative courage to do it. And so this is, this is the kind of conversation that I’m always on with brands is like, have the creative courage to do something that’s a little out of the ordinary because there’s 500 million podcasts or whatever, so you’ve got to stand out. And so you’ve got to think about how to stand out, and one of the best ways to do that is to do something different that hasn’t been done before. For example, there is a great branded fiction podcast called Murder in HR, and it’s by an online HR platform company. And, you know, like, it’s just a scripted fiction true, true crime. It’s not really true because it’s scripted fiction podcast. But, you know, it’s kind of different and fun. So, so there’s stuff like that. There’s, you know what we would call narrative podcasting, which is a mixture of script and clip, where you’re kind of combining on scene recordings with interview tape, with narration, and kind of thoughtfully braiding all those things together, like an NPR (National Public Radio) storytelling experience or a CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) storytelling experience. So there’s all of that that can be part of branded podcasting, and so I just frankly think it’s kind of lazy when brands just decide that they’re going to talk about themselves indefinitely in a podcast. If I want to learn about a brand, I and buy something from them, I’ll go to their website. But if the brand wants to win hearts and minds and raise awareness and build trust and kind of operate on that deeper level to widen their impact. That’s where a podcast, and sponsoring a podcast, or getting behind the production of a podcast can really help. So that’s, I mean, I guess that kind of answers your second question, where do brands go wrong? And it’s usually with just doing the obvious, doing the thing that they think is the most direct route to a customer. And with podcasting, I try to remind people there is a difference between a customer and an audience. A customer is someone who already, at least wants to know more about your product and is thinking of buying maybe they’ve bought from you before. An audience may include those customers, but it may include other people as well who have a wider array of interests and are not yet, do not yet know that they need to buy a new pair of running shoes, but then the next time they need a new pair of running shoes, they may think of you because of that excellent podcast they listen to where you had all those celebrities on talking about the things that motivate them to push harder and go faster, right? So it’s just sort of, it’s a little bit of a roundabout way of winning customers by winning hearts and minds is how I would describe it.

Christian Klepp  08:03

Yeah, winning hearts and minds. I like that. Now. That was a great way to open up this conversation. And thanks for sharing that I had two follow up questions for you. So let’s start with, you know, people loving to hear a good story, so let’s, let’s, let’s take a step back, because remember, the audience of this podcast. They’re mostly B2B Marketers. So from a B2B context, what would you how would you define what a good story is?

Jen Moss  08:32

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I mean, a good story is told beat by beat, this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And here’s the lesson we took from it. Is one of the ways that it has been boiled down, I believe, by Ira Glass, you know, icon of podcasting. So I think you know thinking about even with B2B storytelling, if you’re telling a story that’s based in your industry, and you’re trying to position yourselves as thought leaders in that space. And let’s say you’re interviewing someone who is another company that sells a particular product, and you’re talking to them about a case study, instead of saying, like, what is the product and how does it work, try saying, tell us a story about a problem that someone was having. Start with the stakes, like, what would have happened if they didn’t solve that problem, what was at stake, then build to like how that problem got solved, and perhaps the product or service was involved, right, right? But build to how the problem was solved, so that there’s a bit of an arc from A to B to C to D, so that you start with a problem, work towards a solution. And and make sure to take the time to identify the stakes, like, what would have happened if it didn’t work. Where did it go wrong along the way? Where were the points where you thought, this is not going to work worse? We’re we’re hooped, you know, make sure that when you are telling stories, you’re actually telling the whole story, not just the win, not like we solved it this way, this way and this way. And aren’t we great? Nobody cares. That’s just bragging, and it comes across very badly in podcasting, podcasting, especially audio podcasting, I will say, is a sacred space between the ears. You are literally whispering in people’s ears. If they don’t like what they’re hearing, if they start to feel like you’re shilling to them, they will yank out the earbuds and it’s game over for you, right? They’ll go look at something else or go walk their dog, right? So you really have to just really focus in on the beat by beat. How are you going to hold attention throughout? You can also use sound design to support the tension arc of the story. And don’t be afraid to show the tough stuff, the hard stuff, the stuff that didn’t work, the stuff that even makes you look a bit foolish. We tried this as a brand. It didn’t work. We failed, but what we learned from that was this, right, if you can be a little bit transparent and a little bit more real, you will win hearts and minds, like I said, and if you want, if you can’t do that, people have a nose for BS, and they will smell it, and they will not take you as seriously. So it’s like a sacred duty to tell the truth, which is, which is challenging in a branded space where it’s all about spin and messaging and stuff like that. But the more you can do that, the more credible your content will be.

Christian Klepp  11:56

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, on that topic, the ones I love the most, of the guys that say, like, you know, I, um, I lost my job and I moved to my parents basement, and now I’m making multiple six figures, all within the span of 12 months.

Jen Moss  12:10

I mean, amazing, amazing. Not true, but also, at least they understand the tension arc.

Christian Klepp  12:17

Yes, that’s certainly one way of looking at it, yeah, second follow up question. And I love this, like, creative courage, right?

Jen Moss  12:28

Yeah.

Christian Klepp  12:29

Not many people have it, if we’re going to be perfectly honest, right?

Jen Moss  12:32

Yeah, I’m realizing that. I’m realizing that the older I get, the more I realize how rare it actually is creative courage. Yeah.

Christian Klepp  12:40

Here’s the thing, like, Why do you think that that’s so prevalent, even in in the podcast space? Is it because it’s it because it’s it’s the unknown that people are worried about, like, what if it doesn’t work?

Jen Moss  12:50

Yeah, if you think about podcasting, especially in a branded space, but really in any space, yeah, it’s a vulnerable act. You’re putting yourself out there, you’re putting your brand out there, you’re putting your stories out there, you’re putting your company out there. You’re putting, in some cases, your job on the line, right, by spending budget on this thing, right? So the so the stakes are real for the people involved, and it’s tricky, because striving for perfection right out of the gate is possibly a mistake. I think that podcasting has always been kind of an organic form where it evolves over time. You’ve got to study the audience data and see whether what you’re doing is actually resonating with your audience, and if it’s not, you’ve got to be prepared to pivot and change and adapt the storytelling, the timing, the pacing, the music, all of those things have to be a little bit up for grabs if the audience isn’t resonating. So I do think, I do think there’s that to consider, yeah.

Christian Klepp  13:53

And I suppose people’s tastes very right, like, what people find is creative is very can be very subjective.

Jen Moss  14:01

The creative bravery thing is tricky because of all the reasons I listed, but also because you’re right. It means different things to different people, like for a bank or some sort of finance institution or a pharma company in a very heavily regulated industry, to be like creatively brave in their storytelling is pretty difficult. It’s been, it’s been compared to putting up a tent in the rain, right? Trying to be creative in a corporate environment, putting up a tent in the rain with your spouse is one way to think about

Christian Klepp  14:34

Putting up a tent in the rain with your spouse. And there’s a T-Rex sitting…

Jen Moss  14:38

Graded by a bunch of Russian judges, yeah.

Christian Klepp  14:42

Absolutely.

Jen Moss  14:43

Yeah. It’s tricky, and so to maintain the principles of creativity within that environment is hard. So the principles of creativity include brainstorming, ideation, adaptation, experimentation, so trial and trial and error a little bit, and eventually, you through that process, that iterative process, you arrive at a really great finished work of art, hopefully. But those people who have not been through the creative process and trusted a bunch of you know flaky writers with their with their goals before, and I say that as a flaky writer, it’s it can be hard to trust the creative process if you’re not used to going through it. So if you are working in an industry where everything is about quarterly planning, everything is planned down to the minutia. List, list, list, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, check, check, check, box. And then somebody’s coming in and saying, Well, what about if we explored this? And let’s discuss, Let’s hypothetically explore this topic. You know, there are personality types out there, and a lot of them are working in corporate jobs who are just like, No, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t trust it, and it totally freaks me out. So that kind of I would call it, like floating the creative balloon and batting it around for a while before you make a decision. Trying to create room for that process to happen before you launch your podcast is quite important, and giving proper space and time to that creative process is something that I think the more corporate and kind of button down podcasting becomes, the more I’m seeing that we have to fight that, because we have to be accountable with our timelines. We have to be accountable with our messaging. We have to be accountable with all this stuff. So that’s all very important. Brand safety matters. But if you don’t allow space for that creative ideation phase, and I would, I would argue, frankly, ongoing space within your process, then you will not rise the balloon as high as you could. You could probably still do something that is regularly released and has decent sound quality. So check, check, but is it going to win hearts and minds of audiences? Is it going to stand out 500 million other podcasts? No, it is not. Yeah. So that’s why it matters.

Christian Klepp  17:17

Absolutely, absolutely. Moving on to key pitfalls to avoid. What are they and what should folks be doing instead?

Jen Moss  17:28

I mean, there’s so there’s so many pitfalls. I don’t know where to start …

Christian Klepp  17:32

Try to condense them into like, maybe, like the five, the top five that you’ve seen.

Jen Moss  17:36

Well, let’s look at maybe, let’s look at the phases of doing a podcast, pre-production, production and post-production. So in pre-production, I think the big pitfalls are failing to allow time and space for creative ideation, rushing into it without proper consideration. I think failing to set aside budget to market your podcast can be a mistake, and I think budget for marketing is quite important because, well, we’ll get into that in post production, but one of the important ways for people to find podcasts is through ads on other podcasts, and that costs money. So there’s a little aspect of a pay to play nature that kind of creeps into podcasting. I think it’s important to be realistic about that. It’s not the only way to promote a podcast. There’s many good, organic ways, but if you can reserve some budget for marketing, I think it’s a good idea to do so. And yeah, I would say in pre-production, failure to think big and kind of have embraced blue sky thinking early on, what could this podcast be? Who is it for? Right? Those are very important questions. So at JAR, we have a system. We call the JAR system. It’s job, audience, result, and in pre production, that’s where we really focus on job and audience. What is the job of the podcast? Why are you doing it? Who is the audience? Who is it for? What do they need? Where do they hang out? Are they on audio platforms? Are they on video platforms? Are they YouTubers? Like, what you know? Who are you talking to, and why? Is very important. So job and audience, and then with production, once you get into that big phase. That’s where I think, I sort of say it’s like, point your skis and go, but also bend your knees, because things are going to come up and so, for example, I always recommend having three or four possible guests lined up to service an episode. Because if the first one that you’re going after falls through due to timing and unavailability in your production timeline, an amateur podcaster would just be like, well, that’s okay. I’ll wait till October, when you’re free, whereas I’m saying, no, no. So if you want to do a podcast on this topic, and it’s important to do it now because timeliness matters, then you need to have a couple of other options that are backup options for that guest if they’re unavailable, so things like that. So prepping backups to your backups for your guests is a really good idea so that you can keep your production moving forward and stay focused on the ideas that you’re you’ve determined to explore. So making a plan and then doing your best to stick to it, I think, but keeping your knees bent critically within that plan. Some people have said, Well, is it kind of like you write like a podcast Bible? And I’m like, No, it’s more of a pirate code, but you do need to have a code like there needs to be a plan going forward, but it can change. And then post production, I think the biggest thing is people fail to study their analytics, or fail to understand and interpret their analytics. So if you’re not looking at your audience data, then you’re not getting the most out of that those analytics platforms. So you should be looking at your Spotify data. You should be looking at your apple, podcast data, your YouTube data, the data from your hosting platform. At JAR, we use a company called Bumper. They’re a Canadian company that does a really nice job of pulling together a dashboard which shares a lot of valuable information about about how your podcast is performing. So you can actually see things like, Oh, I made a 30 minute podcast, but everyone’s dropping off at 21 minutes. I wonder why. So either make it really much more interesting at the 21 minute mark, or make a shorter podcast. That’s what the audience data is telling you, right? So being receptive and flexible, keeping your knees bent throughout is very important, and then using that data to feed back into the creative cycle, so that it becomes this circular process of testing and learning, studying the results, making changes, and you’re gradually honing your podcast into something that your audience really, really responds to. So that’s those are the pitfalls that we try to steer people through and around.

Christian Klepp  22:08

That is a great list. And you probably, for those that are listening to the audio version of this, I was, I was nodding the whole time, but, um, one of the things that I would add in there, which I’ve seen happen, and it’s happened to me, and I’m not gonna say who it is, but like, you know, one of the things that they immediately did after having me as a guest on is they pushed me into a follow up call, which big surprise was a was a sales pitch. It’s like, Thank you for being on our show. By the way. Would you like to buy some advertising space in our magazine? Would you like to exhibit in our, you know, upcoming event. You know, for small business, you know, we only charge $10,000 you know, it’s not that much. It’s like,

Jen Moss  22:47

For a lot of small businesses, that is a lot, right?

Christian Klepp  22:50

Exactly.

Jen Moss  22:50

It’s kind of like, to me, if you think of it like dating, you want to play a little bit cool, like, it’s great. You can think of a podcast as a networking tool, absolutely, but it’s you have to just not be like Johnny obvious about it, like, maybe, maybe wait a few months and then reach out and say, Hey, we’re having a special promotion, and we’re you people who have been on our show get a reduced rate or something like that. Sure.

Christian Klepp  23:19

Yeah, exactly.

Jen Moss  23:20

Or just trust the universe. You could also try that, which would be, I had a great you like you and I had a great connection on this podcast. We chat very well. We even talked before the recording about parenting. So, like, we kind of click. So like, if there were ever anything that we could help each other with, I’m sure we would at least be somewhat amenable to it, and maybe that’s enough. Maybe that’s enough, right?

Christian Klepp  23:45

Yeah, probably, probably.

Jen Moss  23:46

Yeah. So I think yes, it’s an opportunity to network, but it is also in the same way that yeah, between people’s ears is a sacred space. Also when someone comes on your show as an unpaid guest, which most podcasts? I think it’s worth pointing out that most podcast guests are unpaid, so they’re doing that out of the sort of the free desire of exchange of ideas, right? And so respecting that in and of itself is very important. And this is why podcasting has risen to such heights is because it is really grounded in that kind of authentic communication, where people are really trying to figure stuff out together, that’s it, and it’s wonderful, and it’s amazing. And so you got to respect that. You got to let that be enough sometimes

Christian Klepp  24:36

Absolutely, absolutely, wow. So you’ve kind of touched on this already, but in our previous conversation, you mentioned that in podcasting, and this does this is not unique to just the B2B space alone, but like in podcasting in general, the story comes first, not the product or the promo. So please elaborate on that.

Jen Moss  24:58

No one is going to listen a 30 minute ad, right? It’s just not gonna happen. As soon as they detect the fact that you’re selling, they’re gone. If you want to have some follow up product information in your show notes, or, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend that, but you could, I suppose, or on your website, great. But the purpose of a podcast is not necessarily that sort of bottom of funnel sales. The purpose of a podcast is, is, it’s a top of funnel engagement opportunity, right? So you’re really, you’re you can build trust, you can build awareness, you can reach new people, and the way you do that is by being relevant and authentic and telling good stories in a way that holds attention. So my own background is from, you know, years of working in radio, documentary storytelling and things like that, I really learned how every, every piece of the story matters. You really have to break down the story arc. Like I said. You got to examine the stakes. You got to think about pacing. All of these things are critical and a funny thing too that I’ve learned I also teach creative writing, and one of the things that one of the lessons that I share with my students, is that the more specific you are in your storytelling, the more it will resonate universally. So through the specific example comes the universal ‘aha’ moment. Whereas if you go in with a bunch of like, I’m like, I’m doing right now, if you go in with a bunch of principles, like, here’s what you got to do, and here’s, here’s the rules, and you should follow these rules, 10 Steps to heaven. Kind of, kind of formulas that might work in a, in a sort of, like a bullet point list on the internet, but in podcasting, that doesn’t really work. It’s, it’s more of a, it’s more of a like, I mean, they say the devil is in the details, but I actually think so are the angels like you really like, if I were to tell you a story about a time I worked with a client, let me think of a real example, Like, okay, Genome, BC (Bristish Columbia) is a client of ours. They are a non-profit here in British Columbia in Canada, and they are dedicated to promoting Genomic Science, and specifically they’re promoting the ability of Genomic Science to solve big problems that the world is facing, okay, like global warming type level problems, right? So that’s great. So how do we tell that story? How do we tell that specifically, we could have a bunch of egg heads on to talk about their research, and we do, we have, it’s a science podcast. We have lots of eggheads, and they’re great, you know, but we have to balance that with like people who are impacted by the issues that the science is trying to address. So we did a piece recently about an episode about genetic testing for, you know, heart problems and things like that, and how we with the study of the human genome, we know with the study of the human genome, we now know so much more about about how to spot those problems almost before they happen, because of your genetic predisposition to certain problems. So we told that story by finding a high schooler who had had a heart attack because of a genetic problem that he didn’t know about. And we told that story beat by beat. I was on the field. This happened. My parents got a call. We talked to his parents, we interviewed everybody. They all told the story about the time the son had the heart attack. They all told it separately in their own way, and we intercut it into this really tense, like, you know, exciting, really piece of storytelling. Then we brought on the scientists to talk about the power of genomic testing and genetic testing and genetic awareness around these health issues, but we first establish why it matters, and it matters because it affects people’s lives. So if you’re doing storytelling and you can connect your ideas to something that’s real, then you’re going to you kind of, you win, you win the storytelling day.

Christian Klepp  29:27

Oh, that’s an that’s an excellent example. And, and I hear you, the easier path would have been to just invite the scientists on, or whoever it was, and they go on and talk about all of their research, and

Jen Moss  29:39

Which is amazing stuff. But I don’t know if you’ve interviewed any scientists. Lately. They can be a little dry, they can be a little dense and hard to listen to.

Christian Klepp  29:47

I’ve interviewed I’m associate professors. Does that count?

Jen Moss  29:52

Yeah, it does. Yeah. People get very granular, right when they’re studying a very specific interest, like that, and that’s what makes them so incredible at their jobs, and I have huge respect for these scientists and and for our host, who is a scientist, credibility also matters with with your core target audience. So it’s not like we de emphasize the science, we just frame the science with important storytelling that helps the wider audience understand why this matters. So if you think about your core target audience, and then you think about people who are just adjacent to that, what would it take those people, the ones who are kind of peering over the fence at your brand, you know, or at your topic? So we say that that particular show for Genome BC, it’s for scientists and for the science curious sort of thing. And so we try to remember the science curious folk when we’re doing our storytelling. It doesn’t mean that we dumb it down. It means that we open our arms and we try to write it in a way that’s inclusive to a slightly wider audience, while still delivering excellent, groundbreaking, scientific insight that is timely and relevant. It’s a hard line to walk. Actually.

Christian Klepp  31:07

It is.

Jen Moss  31:07

It takes a lot of skill and it takes a lot of attention, but if you get it right, you know that show, that show, is winning every award we enter.

Christian Klepp  31:17

Wow, yeah, remind me what the name of the show was again.

Jen Moss  31:20

Oh, it’s called Nice Genes, like G-E-N-E-S yes, yeah. And then they have a short form one called Genes Shorts.

Christian Klepp  31:27

Genes shorts, okay? Because why not? All right,

Jen Moss  31:30

Because why not. Trying to have a little fun. So what’s gonna stand out? Right? We thought, you know, Nice Genes!, exclamation mark. That’ll stand out.

Christian Klepp  31:38

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Jen, you’ve given us plenty of insights already and some actionable tips, but just imagine that there’s somebody out there that’s listening to the show and they’re like, gosh, you know what we are exactly in this situation right now. What advice would you give them? Like, maybe, like, three to five things they can take action on right now that they can help launch a podcast that is not boring and that doesn’t sound like PR (Public Relations).

Jen Moss  32:06

So probably the best thing you could do is do a little bit of like light competitive research. So have a look at what other podcasts are in your space, in your topic area, right? And check out this. This is going to sound mean, but check out what’s wrong with them. Like, actually go and listen to as many of them as you can. Maybe give yourself a week to do that and make make a point of listening to five a day for a week. And then you’ll start to see, okay, the vast majority of these, they don’t have good sound quality, like the host doesn’t have a proper microphone. Or the vast majority of these, the lighting is terrible, or the vast majority of these, they’re asking the same questions over and over again, and, oh, I saw that guest on three different podcasts, right? So if that’s happening, then ask yourself the next logical question, which is, how can we be different? How can we find our own kind of quadrant to step into? How can we rewrite the book here and do something unexpected that still meets our values, that still targets the right audience, but does it in a way that is going to just shake things up a little bit and challenge people’s expectations of us and and our own expectations of ourselves. So don’t take the lowest hanging fruit, at least until you’ve considered some of the other options. And it may be that you’re like, No, I actually really want to do a straight interview podcast, because I really want to have deep conversations with people like this, like this podcast does, and that’s great, but then you know, like you’ve chosen that for a reason, like you’ve you’ve given it due consideration. And then within that, even within a if you’re planning to do a straight ahead interview podcast, is there’s no shame in that. But even thinking about, like, what would make your interview podcast different? So it’s the it. Could you describe it at a cocktail party as, like, it’s the one where they blank, blank, blank, right? Could you describe it in one sentence, and is it going to be memorable that sentence? There was a show I used to watch years ago and listen to where, what was it called? It was called Another Round, and it was one of the first shows where they would drink and podcast, but they would do a ton of Political Research, these two journalists, and then they would interview someone, while getting increasingly sloshed, the guest and the two hosts, and they would get increasingly sloshed, and the questions would become more and more but, I mean, they were very successful. They had, they were on WNYC. They had Hillary Clinton on when she was running for president. So, like, it this, this is the kind of thing I’m saying. Like, I’m not saying everyone should drink in podcasts. Us. No, let’s be clear. That’s not my message. Yeah, my message is, what makes your podcast, what makes you distinct in the way you’re delivering your podcast? What is your framing device? What is the lens that you’re bringing to it?

Christian Klepp  35:12

Yeah, right, yeah. No, no, I hear you. I hear you.

Jen Moss  35:15

Yeah. So I think those would be my biggest pieces of advice. Is just to spend the time trying to, trying to position yourself differently.

Christian Klepp  35:25

No, fantastic, fantastic. It reminds me of, I think the show was called in the Hot Seat, and it was by a cyber security firm, and they were, they were bringing in somebody that was, and I didn’t actually realize there was such a role, but this is the person that’s actually responsible for negotiating with cyber criminals.

Jen Moss  35:45

Whoa, that’s I’m immediately interested.

Christian Klepp  35:48

That’s a pretty intense job, right? So, yeah, when they have all that ransomware and what have you right? So this is the guy that negotiates like, release all our release all our data, right? So anyways, the host asks him the questions, and with every question, they’re basically eating chicken wings with a different type of hot sauce.

Jen Moss  36:10

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Christian Klepp  36:11

And the more intense question, yeah,

Jen Moss  36:14

Hot ones, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christian Klepp  36:15

The more intense the question gets, the hotter the sauce becomes.

Jen Moss  36:19

Yes. That’s a great show. It’s they have all kinds of interesting people on it, and it’s interesting to watch people’s reactions shift as they get more and more overwhelmed by heat. Yeah. So that’s another super example of a framing device. I mean, arguably, that one’s a bit of a gimmick.

Christian Klepp  36:36

Sure.

Jen Moss  36:37

You don’t necessarily need to do something that obvious. It might be something like, on this show, we always ask a certain question, or we’re always trying to get at sort of, I would call it like, the the underlying idea of this show is we’re always trying to expose this concept, like, maybe you’re trying to prove that work life balance is important, and that’s your overarching goal, and that’s the lens that you bring to your to your all of your conversations that you have. So every time you’re able to, you bring up that theme in some way and explore it with a new guest. So just whatever it is, whatever the lens is, or the device that you’re framing with, it’s just important to be intentional about that?

Christian Klepp  37:21

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. All right, Jen, I have a feeling that you’ve been on your soapbox this whole time, but please just stay up there a while longer, while I ask you this question. All right, and a status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why?

Jen Moss  37:40

Okay, well, right now there’s, am I allowed to mention the AI (Artificial Intelligence) please?

Christian Klepp  37:49

Absolutely.

Jen Moss  37:49

Okay. Well, right now there’s a lot of discussion around AI driven content, and one of the ways that it’s being sort of sold to people in the industry is that it will allow you to put out more content quicker. And I can see lots of advantages to AI in the production pipeline. For example, it can be helpful with research if you’re as long as you double fact check it. It can be helpful with correcting certain things in editing. You know, if a host mispronounces a word, or you need to do like, you need to remove some background noise. AI tools can be really, really helpful. So I’m not knocking ai i i teach it. For example, I teach creative writing for new media, and I’m very interested. I’m currently building an AI VR (Virtual Reality) poetry machine with some students. So, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about AI, and I like it and hate it. It’s a double edged sword. But what I don’t agree with is that we should be measuring the efficacy of a tool based on how fast and how often it allows us to put out content. I just don’t think that an onslaught of mediocre content is what people want. I think it’s killing the internet. Corey Doctorow would say he would call it the in shittification of the internet. And it is already, it is already happening, right? He got check it out. He’s got a book out.

Christian Klepp  39:22

Okay.

Jen Moss  39:22

And so that’s, you know, that’s what I worry about, is that it’s becoming like a big content hose. And so then I actually believe that the way forward, in order to actually have your message heard and received by your intended audience is to really hold on to that authenticity piece. I would rather see people do things less often, but do them better and remember that quality matters. And if we can’t remember that, then the internet is just going to be a bunch of bots talking to each other, and it’s just stupid. I just think it’s stupid. So that’s the that’s, that’s, if you know, not to put too fine a point on it, podcasting is, is not about efficiency. It’s about communication. It’s about connection. It’s about contact. It’s about humans talking to humans. And if it’s, if you fail to recognize that it’s sort of at your peril, you know,

Christian Klepp  40:23

Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, it goes back to the point you were making at the beginning of this conversation. I mean, if you want to create a show that stands out and that’s different, right, then you probably shouldn’t be churning out vanilla content, right? Using AI.

Jen Moss  40:39

Doesn’t work.

Christian Klepp  40:39

That’s not the way to do it, right?

Jen Moss  40:41

Go ahead, but no one will listen to it. So you’ll be able to be like, Look, I I tick, tick, tick. I put out this many episodes, or this many social media clips, or whatever it is. But what’s what are your consumption rates like? Are the right? Are the right people finding your content? Are they engaging with you? Is it moving the needle for you in terms of your goals, the job of the podcast? Like these are all the things that people really need to consider before they sort of hop on the AI bus, I think. And again, I’m not a Luddite, yeah. I use AI daily despite its rather terrifying environmental impact, yeah, yeah, but it’s become almost a ubiquitous tool that’s difficult to avoid in our line of work. But I do think that some people are really taking it too far, and it’s because they’re misunderstood. They’re misunderstanding the mission. The mission is not volume and efficiency. The mission is connection.

Christian Klepp  41:41

Absolutely, absolutely Jen, wow. What a conversation. Well, at the very least this episode is not boring, right?

Jen Moss  41:50

Like, I mean, I don’t know, ask my ask my 20 something daughter.

Christian Klepp  41:58

Different strokes are different folks, I’m gonna say, but thank thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please, a quick introduction to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch.

Jen Moss  42:09

with you. Oh, so the best way to get in touch with me would probably be through the JAR podcasts website, jarpodcasts.com and I’m also just Jen@jarpodcasts.com.

Christian Klepp  42:22

Fantastic, fantastic. Once again. Jen Moss, thank you for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.

Jen Moss  42:29

Awesome. Thank you. Okay.

Christian Klepp  42:30

Bye, for now.

Jen Moss  42:31

Bye.