Christian Klepp  00:00

We can all agree that to secure more business in this competitive landscape, B2B companies need to start by building trust. With so much digital noise and similar marketing tactics out there, standing out has become both a challenge and an opportunity. So how can B2B brands build trust in this era of skepticism? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today I’ll be talking to Tye DeGrange, who will be answering this question. He’s the CEO of Round Barn Labs, and is a growth expert focused on paid marketing and conversion rate optimization. Find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. And here we go. Mr. Tye DeGrange, welcome to the show, Sir.

Tye DeGrange  00:45

Thank you, Christian. It’s great to be here and looking forward to it. 

Christian Klepp  00:49

Great to have you on the show. Tye, and I’m really looking forward to this discussion, because I think every B2B marketer and every B2B business out there can benefit from building based on trust, building relationships based on trust, building their business based on trust, building communities based on trust, you get the picture, right? So… 

Tye DeGrange  01:12

Yeah. 

Christian Klepp  01:13

Well, let’s dive right in, right? So fantastic. So Tye, you’re on a mission to help connect B2B and consumer tech companies with trusted voices to drive growth and engagement. And as I’ve already alluded to, the topic of today’s conversation is going to be around how B2B marketers can build trust in the age of skepticism. And I know that’s a very strong word, but you know what? Let’s not sugar coat it. It’s hard to build trust these days. But let’s kick off the conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. One is, why is it so difficult for brands to build trust in the market? And number two, where do these so called trust gaps? Where do they come from?

Tye DeGrange  01:54

Yeah, it’s a good question. You know this, this evolution has kind of been happening for a long time. We’ve seen people not trust as much as they used to for years now. If you think about rewind the clock to middle of last century, ancient history for some people, but there was a lot more inherent trust in authority, government, business, marketing, messaging, I think the world has gotten a lot more noisy, a lot more open, a lot more transparent. A lot of the typical gatekeepers of television, media, authority, you name it. The list goes on and on right have kind of been unmasked, and we’ve seen this across a lot of different things. A lot more things have been crowdsourced and democratized, and everyone has a supercomputer in their pocket. So, you know, all of those things have really led to a overall decline in trust. Obviously, you know, bad actors, unfortunate challenges in terms of fraud, and people are not as reliant on things, you know, generally speaking, as they used to. I think there’s obviously a lot of great things happening in terms of opportunity and what, what, what technology is giving to us all, but there’s also some challenges. And so nowhere are we seeing that more really readily than in marketing, in particular, where brands can no no longer just kind of wave the banner themselves and spend the dollars and get in touch with the Mad Men Don Draper type to run a creative and a story and and and plot that out over the course of a, you know, TV ad campaign. It’s much more fragmented now, and brands are having to rely on third parties to really engage into illicit trust. People are really heavily reliant on that much more than they ever have been.

Christian Klepp  03:59

Absolutely, absolutely. And just, just going back to that second question, Where does, where do you think this originates from, this whole trust gap? Or is it multiple factors? I’d imagine it would be.

Tye DeGrange  04:10

Yeah, no, it’s a great question. You know, I think there’s so much about technology improvements that have really empowered people at a level that, you know, I just don’t think was even close to possible 20 years ago, not to mention 50, 60 plus years ago, right? We can kind of, we’ve been kind of taught how to fish, in some ways when it comes to finding information, and so you know, whether it’s going into a car dealership or seeing an ad on a streaming service about an outdoor, you know, equipment that you you’re in consideration to buy, you know, you have a lot of power in your fingertips. And information, as we know, information, is power to a degree. And so I think that you. Yeah, the technology is a huge we can talk about the multitude of factors, which there are quite a few, but the technology itself is a really big factor. And that, I think that’s partially why, you know, I think, and then conversely, I think, unfortunately, there’s been a lot of just misplaced trust and bad actors. And enough of that happens, and people get wise. They get their skepticism goes up. It’s not like you dwell on that, but I think the technology, plus some of the failures of people with that power and with that control as gatekeepers in media and marketing and business, you know, from Enron to all the other examples over the last, you know, 50 years, there’s just a numerous number of them. And so I think that’s why we found ourselves in a bit of a trust gap, to where consumers in a business setting, or in a marketing setting, kind of come in with a pretty heavy dose of skepticism, which I think we’ve all kind of seen.

Christian Klepp  06:02

Absolutely, absolutely. How much of this trust gap would you say is caused also by social media?

Tye DeGrange  06:13

Yeah, I think, I think it kind of is, in a big way, on a multitude of factors, right? You’ve got this wealth of information. You’ve got the ability to kind of crowdsource information, and on one hand, that can really increase your signal, and it can give you some info where you maybe didn’t have it before, especially on particular topics. But in other areas, you have, you know, a crazy amount of things that are false, lies, misinfo, however you want to describe it. So talk about a double whammy. It kind of creates, like, a lot of a lot more noise over signal in different ways, in that there’s expectations of knowledge, and it’s almost like the data marketing, you know, debates we get into, like, you get all this data, but are you really getting some information back? So I think you’re spot on. I think those things have really just only increased the kind of skepticism and trust gap that we found ourselves in.

Christian Klepp  07:15

Yeah, yeah. No, that’s absolutely right. You spoke about this a little bit earlier in the conversation, but talking about, like, trusted voices, so partnering with influencers and the like, I guess it begs the question, like, why do you feel? Or, let me rephrase that, how can partnering with trusted voices? Let’s put it that way, how can partnering with trusted voices help to bridge this so called trust gap between B2B brands and their target markets? 

Tye DeGrange  07:43

Yeah, no, it’s a great call out. I mean, I think we are, you know, wired for social interaction. You know, we, you and I are feeding off of each other. On this conversation, there’s people watching that are, you know, picking up signals. And if you’re in person, it obviously is much different and get much more context. We’re wired for that. First and foremost, there’s a lot of data to support that individuals are much more likely to trust something that comes from friends, family, obviously. But even so, people they don’t know, a creator, influencer. What would you want to call them, that can kind of educate them on a topic about a brand or service. And so this gap is kind of creating this movement and this demand and this excitement around, how can brands, you know, tap into third parties, you know, the affiliate world, for example, affiliate marketing has been around for 30 years. It has exploded in particular, probably in the last 5 and 10 around in particular, around like content sites, reviews, top 10 guides. But there’s like 15 other business models that are kind of connected to that. The reviews and gift guides and top 10s are a great example of a writer or an author or a collection of voices who are showcasing value and interesting information about various brands. It’s not necessarily directly coming from the brand itself. 

Tye DeGrange  09:19

And you know, varying flavors of that, in terms of trust and validity that we see, we look at that, we grade that, we take that seriously. And then on the Creator, influencer side, on social media, Instagram, Tiktok, YouTube, LinkedIn, X, etc, all of that. It’s even more, you know, pronounced. There’s a lot of a social aspect where some of these folks are so powerful. They’re creating brands themselves. You know, some of the technology you know brands are making or breaking brands with their reviews and understanding of it and explanation. And you know, and it’s welcoming, kind of the 30 years ago, and ads, you wouldn’t say, well, here’s an amazing razor, here’s the downside of said razor. It would be this aspirational image of manliness and people driving around in sports cars and stuff, stuff. And that’s fine, and that’s branding, that’s ads, but, you know, and then you have kind of, like the more specific value prop type ad stuff. But nowadays it’s like, I think people that skepticism, that trust gap, is really welcoming people to kind of get the good, bad and ugly from someone down the street, amplified on digital. Now, everyone has a microphone. Everyone has a super computer. So here we are, and I think that’s what brands are really clamoring for. We’re seeing just insane investment, millions and billions to billions invested. Growth rates through the roof. So it’s happened in a pretty steady clip, and it’s kind of become a requirement. There’s other pieces to that, but that’s, that’s a bit about why?

Christian Klepp  11:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I wanted to add something to that razor commercial. It’s not just about driving sports cars. It’s about riding horses too, right? Like…

Tye DeGrange  11:18

Exactly.

Christian Klepp  11:19

Sorry, the audience is not going to get that joke, but, you know. 

Tye DeGrange  11:22

That’s okay. We appreciate it. Things that are aspirational, you know, we could go there. 

Christian Klepp  11:29

That’s right, no, but you brought up something, which I think is so true, it’s enabled. I would even go as far as to say it’s empowered people with all this, there’s more transparency now, right? 

Tye DeGrange  11:41

Yes. 

Christian Klepp  11:42

On a completely different topic, because I live in Toronto, and we, you know, we had this discussion, like, back during the Christmas time where, you know, we had gathering with family and friends, and we were talking about the crime rate and everyone’s, you know, one side of the table was talking about, like, you know, all the crimes through the roof, and it’s increased since the pandemic. And there was another group on the table that was a little bit older that said, You know what, um, the crime rate is about the same that it was 30 years ago. The difference is that it’s just easier to report the crime now, right? Because, you know, you can post it. You can post it on social media. You’ve got videos of something happening there. You can even send it to the Twitter or the x account of the police services and so forth, right? And that didn’t exist 30 years ago, right? You had yet 911, and that was it, right?

Tye DeGrange  12:33

Yeah, yeah, yes, citizen. Now not to go down a rabbit hole. There’s a lot of ways to absolutely report and shine light on things, and everyone’s got that ability now, so I think you’re on to something there.

Christian Klepp  12:46

Yeah, yeah. And, in fact, that’s like, kind of a nice little segue to my follow up question, right? Which I let’s, let’s, I mean, I can’t help myself but ask you this question, because people, even in the B2B space when you’re talking about partnering with influencers, perhaps one of the, I would even call it a knee jerk reaction to, oh, we’re partnering with an influencer. Okay, how many followers, how many subscribers, how many downloads? Is this guy gonna guarantee us? Like, I don’t know if that’s if that’s a trend that you’re seeing. And first question, and second question, what is it with people’s obsession with numbers and the bigger numbers?

Tye DeGrange  13:29

Yeah, I think that the crazy, the cool thing is, like there’s, on one hand, there’s this movement towards brands now being able to tap into affiliates, creators, influencers, all these third parties with varying degrees of trust and varying degrees of volume and varying degrees of quality that can promote your brand, you know, to state some somewhat of the obvious and not barely too much. I mean, we kind of help people navigate that and figure that out, and rank, stack and match. It’s a matchmaking game for many ways. I think there’s also a little bit of, there’s also a lot of complexities and challenges that come up with it. I think brands are there’s also a degree of, I think, blowback and fatigue that’s happened in the space where, you know, a lot of people are sort of fed up with shelling out these astronomical figures for follower counts or even for engagement. Engagement is important, but you know, to an extent, there needs to be other ROI (Return on Investment) captured here, especially as people have gotten more fiscally responsible in the last three and a half years, if you will. 

Tye DeGrange  14:41

So comes with this kind of you know, great opportunity comes some responsibility in going after the right things and looking at how much is this influencer, creator, partner, aligned with your actual customer use cases? Actual ICP , you know, ideal customer personas, actual demographics. Is it aiding in that? You know, awareness, consideration, conversion? Are you driving MQLs (Marketing Qualified Lead), SQL (Sales Qualified Lead), lead volume in a B2B SaaS world. The good news is for B2B SaaS, you’re kind of looking at one of the most insane compound annual growth rate of any performance marketing lever. You know, it’s not like people are knocking down the door to do paid search. I mean, yeah, they are. It’s kind of a necessary piece of the mix. You don’t want to exclude it per se, but it’s fun to be able to play in a world where you have data and all these relationships you have to manage. It’s difficult. And so stepping back with all this opportunities comes kind of this mess to unwind and under Help people understand and so presents a unique challenge for brands to kind of go, Well, where do we start? How do we get this going? How do we measure it? And I think, I think that’s where we want to collaborate with people that are, that are that are, have intention about it.

Christian Klepp  16:14

Absolutely, absolutely. So bottom line, it’s not just about the numbers, right? 

Tye DeGrange  16:20

Yeah, yeah. And to build on that Christian, you know, for a lot of brands, it can be a content creator as well. You know, we’ve been touting this since, gosh, about 2018 actually, where we kind of call it a flywheel effect, where if you can get your site dialed in optimally from a conversion perspective. If you can go out and acquire third party, uh, great reviews, discussions, how tos, comparisons versus your competitors that are appropriate and in line with your kind of agreements and the voice of the Creator. You don’t want to take that away. You get a couple winners there, and you get that white listing rights. You can port those into your LinkedIn or to to meta, and those can, you know, oftentimes be your best performing creative. Yeah. So, so there’s a little bit of a how do we build up the awareness and consideration, a little, maybe some storytelling element, to some extent, for brands that can invest that’s probably ideal. Then you have a content generation value. Then there is a legitimate, straight up ROI value. You know, affiliate itself is generally going to be more efficient than, I think, influencer on the surface. 

Tye DeGrange  17:37

But if you kind of combine the power of that. You know, you’re looking at the two very, really powerful levers. The other cool thing is not to go too down a rabbit hole. A lot of people don’t realize, in B2B marketing, there’s referrals, there’s ambassadors, there’s value add, resellers like B2B SaaS has such an ecosystem already in the partnerships world is already kind of known, and so I think, think what we’re seeing is a little bit of a collision of, like all these things into one. It’s not necessarily you’re going to try to do it all for everyone, but the old school kind of affiliate mechanism of brand tracking, provider, partner, and all that tracked and going through one ecosystem, that logic can be applied to all of those different players in the ecosystem. So your affiliates and your influencers, and your value added resources, your partners, your tech partners, ideally, all that could be kind of managed under one plumbing system, you can see all the data of how that interacts directly. That’s, I think, a really exciting part of this, and that’s, I think, the Holy Grail, where B2B brands want to be moving to.

Christian Klepp  18:52

I think you just inadvertently came up with a title for this episode, like managed under one plumbing system. There you go. Fantastic.

Tye DeGrange  19:01

Yeah, make it sound really sexy. Keep blue collar. 

Christian Klepp  19:07

Yes, Mario Brothers stuff really.

Tye DeGrange  19:11

Now we have a theme song too,

Christian Klepp  19:14

Fantastic. On the topic of key pitfalls for B2B marketers to avoid what are they and what should they be doing instead?

Tye DeGrange  19:25

I think one of the big ones is treating it like consumer a lot of people who have affiliate expertise, a lot of people who have done affiliate a lot for tons of consumer brands, think they can just kind of bolt in a kind of consumer based approach. They’re not thinking long term about the value that partners are bringing over the course of you know, quite insane. LTVs (Life Time Value), that’s the beauty of SaaS, right? You have margins, you have long term retention, in some cases, for the leads and MQLs, SQL is revenue that are being brought in. So I think that applying kind of a short term micro approach is sort of a big pitfall. 

Tye DeGrange  20:10

I think another one is like really not being very well aligned with the data, and not really thinking for the benefit of the B2B SaaS brand. It’s easy to, you know, stand up a tracking tool, get tracking in place, see some metrics in the tracking tool, recruit partners. But oftentimes what you see in the tracking is a great start, and you have to go multiple layers deeper to really align with what’s happening with the CRM? Where are those? Where are those transactions, those leads, those actions, happening later on? Are they actually converting? Are we getting quality? Are you looking at things at a cohort level? So those two are pretty big, you know, I think, I think because it is still so relationship based, it’s easy, I think, to think transactionally and to think, start, stop and like, you know, Uber agile, search and social take their time to build out and grow and mature and be, you know, come to fruition. Affiliate, partner, influencer is even more dramatic. It’s probably double the time, I would say, to get those things up and running. So because you’re dealing with human element, because you’re some ways pitching a story and a reason why a particular B2B SaaS brand should be promoted or could be promoted. Why does it match make that time requirement is really important. And I think having that askew, having expectations off on that, or where a lot of brands go wrong. So those are the big three I see,

Christian Klepp  21:49

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. Those are, those are some really critical ones too. Um…

Tye DeGrange  21:55

Yeah.

Christian Klepp  21:56

Okay, break it down for us. I mean, I know you’ve given us a lot, but like, break it down for us in terms of how, if I am the B2B marketer, like, say, in a SaaS company and whatnot, what steps do I need to take to help to build that trust, right? So what are, what? How do brands reclaim that authenticity in their marketing?

Tye DeGrange  22:18

Brands that are doing well in B2B SaaS and have gotten over certain revenue growth marketing hurdles in their trajectory. Are in a unique position to invest in this and collaborate with some folks that know how to do this. I think that’s obviously helpful. I think that the more they on, they’re really kind of coming at it from a customer use case perspective. If this is a time tracking device, if this is a calendar calendaring device, you know, device really leaning into what are the pain points that the customer is feeling? What are those real, real value benefits that they’re touting and the customer is really vocally speaking about in reviews and product discussions? Great, B2B SaaS companies know this inherently. They have invested millions upon millions in it already. Their product teams are entrenching it for the most part. So I think about it in that lens and saying, how do we line up the best 50 content sites, the best 50 YouTubers, the best 50 Tiktok, in some cases, LinkedIn, you know, AI gurus, they’re all there. And those are real partners to work with. 

Tye DeGrange  23:52

I think the more that that customer and those good stakeholders are being thought of as part of that process, the more it’s going to come out, you know, I in some cases, you can almost use your customers as partners. In some cases, if you want to get you know literal about it, there’s a percentage of them that could be and so I think the more it kind of tells that story, the better. I mean, we look at it. We look at revenue and actions and like North Star metric actions, not just lead submissions and things like that, as really the Holy Grail, and really want to align with the whole what’s the holy grail for each B2B SaaS brand. So we have a lot of data in our database of 10,000 plus partners, contact information, real time, data, contact, all that stuff that can better match make but, and I think the more there, the more the line minutes with the customer. And it doesn’t have to all be rosy picture. Some of it’s going to be that, going back to that authenticity piece, going back to that what’s changed over the last 50. Years, it’s, it’s okay to say this part of the software is kind of, kind of not working for me, but for the most part, it’s head and shoulders above the other players, and the pricing works. Or, hey, they’re kind of number two in this space, but they’re killer for the overall solution. If you’re in this use case, there’s, I think there’s a lot of ways where that authenticity comes through, where you’re just being very honest about it in the review, and so it doesn’t always have to be his hands down, the best solution. This is what you know. This is why. 

Tye DeGrange  25:30

And the other part of that authenticity is that FTC (Federal Trade Commission) requirements really require there to be some disclosures around. Hey, I’m getting compensated for this hashtag ad. There’s some good disclosure legal requirements from the FTC that every part of the ecosystem is really responsible for. We want to be monitoring that for our clients. We currently are careful about that advising clients to make sure we’re getting that coverage and exposure to to protect everybody involved, and to let the consumer be protected to know that, hey, this is, I’m being transparent with you, going back to what we said earlier.

Christian Klepp  26:07

Absolutely, absolutely, and only because you brought it up. I’m gonna go back to it, right? Because, man, it is 2025, and what kind of podcast interview would this be if I didn’t ask you about AI, right? Like… 

Tye DeGrange  26:22

Yeah. 

Christian Klepp  26:22

I mean, if we’re, if we’re on the topic of building trust, right, AI comes up and immediately, oftentimes, unfortunately, has a negative connotation, but just over to you, just from your experience and based on your expertise, how much of an impact. How much do you feel AI actually impacts this trust gap we’re talking about, and how should brands be if they’re trying to reclaim that trust, how should they go about dealing with AI? Because let’s be honest. We’re not going to throw it out the window, right, but there’s a but there’s a right and wrong way to be leveraging it.

Tye DeGrange  27:05

I think it’s similar to what I shared earlier about social media, in that it both helps and hurts. I think it makes these types of conversations perhaps even more valuable for me, you know, right, wrong or indifferent, I’ve kind of jokingly become a reluctant influencer, as I joked with my friends and team about, you know, and you are as well. Obviously, some are more explicitly influencers than others. You know, we have a lot of examples. YouTube’s a great one where it’s like, let me explain you how to onboard Trello, Monday, HubSpot. Let me do a comparison of these in all of that. But if you think about the value of those, those creators might be using AI to make their job easier. You might be using AI to improve their workflows and their efficiency, but when the rubber meets the road for the consumer to feel human connection with somebody that actually has a heartbeat and has issues and dealing with life. That’s where I think the magic is. And I think where you’ve seen Google shift with the Eat framework, and a lot of the challenges to the existing status quo. A lot of sites have been slapped a lot of AI is eating, you know, organic search to some extent. I think people are their radar, and skepticism is being fed with that as well, because they’re wondering, was this AI generated to some extent? And I think there’s this weird angle where we’re probably, you know, we’re certainly going to see more of that content, and some of it can perform, quote, unquote, but that’s part of, I think, again, feeding why they want to have those human connections and those human voices. I think video, yeah, eventually there’s, you see, a lot of these hyperbolic, Oh, can you believe this is actually an AI bot and not a human? Sure, but we crave it. Going back to what we said, we crave that human connection. We crave this societal, tribal connection of one human to another. Fortunately, that’s not going anywhere. And I think it just amplifies that opportunity for this type of stuff, that’s like, Hey, I’m here. I’m alive. I’m not saying it perfectly, but I’m being honest with you about my suggestions and my conversation and my review, and it’s double edged. It’s helping and hurting, as I shared with social media earlier.

Christian Klepp  29:41

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.

Tye DeGrange  29:44

And I think it’s mostly an opportunity, because I think in exciting ways, like we get to use it to empower, build, get, make things better, more efficient. I’m not saying it’s not negatively impacting people in the market or the job world. It is. But, um. And then we get to give people something they’re craving, which is the opposite of a robot, which is a human voice that says, hey, I tried this software, and I really struggled with this part. But this is what’s magical about it, and why you should consider it for your use case.

Christian Klepp  30:17

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. That’s absolutely right? I mean, like on the topic of human connection, just try calling any bank, and once you’ve gotten past that whole, like, I call it like that dial that, dial salad, right, where they put you on hold for 30 minutes and they push you into AI, and you got to answer all these questions. And then after that you got to press four, and you know, by the time you actually get to talk to somebody, 45 minutes of fast.

Tye DeGrange  30:48

It’s insane, yeah.

Christian Klepp  30:51

So I hear you there. It helps and hurts. 

Tye DeGrange  30:55

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Christian Klepp  30:57

All right, we’re getting to the point in the conversation where we’re talking about actionable tips, and Tye, you’ve given us plenty. I’m looking at it now. We’re at like, about 31 minutes. But if a B2B marketer, if there’s somebody out there that’s listening to this interview, and you want them to take action on this whole trust building initiative right after listening to this recording. What are like three to five things you would say they can do right now.

Tye DeGrange  31:26

You know, I would take a look at your ad set ads. We have a history of running ads and thinking about things from a multi channel marketing perspective, not just a partner marketing perspective, but if you’re not really tapping into third parties, creators, social proof, g2 reviews, you’re certainly missing the boat. If you’re doing a small percentage of that, you’re probably missing the boat. So that’s one part. 

Tye DeGrange  31:52

I think you know, are you thinking about partner marketing? Do you have a program live if it is, is it 10, 20, 30% of your revenue, lead volume? Is it on track to get there? Do you have somebody working on it? Have you had someone look under the hood and do an audit of the program to just get an assessment, third party, candid review, going back to authenticity, that is something that can be extremely valuable to at least have a partner, marketing expert, look at under the hood and give you some advice. We’d love to do that we’re happy to help, that can help at least give you assessment of where you’re at now and where you might go and what you may or may not need. There’s a lot of times we’ll look at things and say, I don’t think you need XYZ now, but maybe you invest in this later. I think that you know having some degree of of creator that aligns with that ideal customer persona, that aligns with your marketing goals, that’s growing at a clip that you’re you’re happy with, and is aligned with your business growth, is really important, and then having it kind of sing in unison with your other channels, again, using as a content generator. There’s a lot there. So even if you have one or the other in terms of affiliate or influencer, just tapping into one of those would be a great first step. I think there’s a lot there, and then eventually getting them kind of complimenting one another is the ideal state.

Christian Klepp  33:22

Yeah, no, there’s some excellent tips. And yeah, everything that you just said in terms of, like, taking a look at the ads, talking about, like, partner marketing, if you’re on track to get there, I’m just doing a quick recap here, third party candidate review. I think that that’s really important. I mean, if we’re talking, you know, on the topic of building topic of building trust, right? I mean getting, getting that external assessment, not necessarily always validation. I mean, ideally, yes, but like that assessment review and then having creators that align with your customer persona. Because nothing is worse than getting, get partnering with an influencer or creator that is completely misaligned with your target audience, right?

Tye DeGrange  34:06

Yeah, that’s huge, and it’s hard. It’s easier said than done. Yeah, everything’s gonna hit 10 out of 10. You want to have some experimentation going, Yes, but that’s really, that’s really a huge part of it.

Christian Klepp  34:16

Absolutely, absolutely. I know we talked about this before, and I kind of jumped the gun here, but in terms of metrics, I mean, this is, I call it the Love it or hate it question, because, man, at some point you’re going to have to show somebody, most probably also someone in a non marketing role, that your that your initiatives are working and that you’re making progress. So what metrics, just from a top level perspective, what metrics would you say, B2B marketers need to be paying attention to?

Tye DeGrange  34:44

Depends by organization, you know, for us, you know, we, we are pretty focused, you know, just to lay all the cards on the table like we’re very focused on, you know, are we getting the satisfaction and the results that we want from clients. So we were really lucky. Q1, 2025, 9.4 out of 10 in terms of like, happiness level, very, very excited to see that we’re seeing retention of our clients of over three and a half years, which is kind of nuts in this world. It’s moving rather quickly when you think about one of the reasons why is like we want to, we operate like an extension of a team. So oftentimes, as I said earlier, you might have, like, sign up or traffic, or maybe a lead, or maybe something slightly better in terms of a platform, like an impact or a partner partner stack, or another platform that you might be measuring your partner marketing from we need, you got to go a little deeper there and pull in as much CRM (Customer Relationship Management) data as possible, or do some correlation there to see and make sure that those are as connected as possible, ideally as much as possible is in those platforms. So getting it as far down that SQL pendulum as possible is really powerful. Ultimately, we coach our teammates. We’re very focused on Hey, even if we can get some estimates, we want every dollar spent with us, and with this initiative to be highly ROI, high ROI positive at a great CPA, all in CPA or cost per lead, or cost per MQL. So it’s kind of all of those things across that pendulum, and then certainly a lot of validation with the client to understand, like, are these the actual metrics that they’re looking at? But it’s far too often. There’s a little too much just kind of top level lead, traffic focus, and there’s not enough. Is this our all in penciling for business, and that’s kind of we’re talking about that absolutely as early as we can, and we model that out as absolutely as early as we can, with our partners and our clients.

Christian Klepp  37:00

Yeah, that sounds about right. All right. Get up on your soap box, sir. I think you’ve kind of been up there already, but just to stay up there a while longer, no offense. What’s the status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why.

Tye DeGrange  37:23

I’m shocked how often we look at programs that appear to be on autopilot despite having an agency or a team of experts working on them, we’re talking about multi billion dollar brands trying to grow, trying to get partners, trying to get authentic trust through affiliate or creator influencer. And it’s, it’s surprising to see how often it’s not happening. They’ll have extremely low number of partners. They’ll be a one size fits all approach applied, or, as I alluded to earlier, you’re getting some ancillary metric signal through the platform, and not much else. And if you ask about all in our life, you ask about cost per MQL, or some of the more the metrics that matter most to the client. It’s lacking. So that’s just kind of hits me first and foremost, that we see far too often. And it’s unfortunate, because I think there’s a lot of work to be done in this space. There’s a lot of business out there. There’s a lot of opportunity to kind of evangelize the value and the beauty that is this, this kind of marketing lever. I like to think of it as a channel of channels you can tap into so many marketing channels within affiliate creator, it’s not just meta, it’s not just content sites, it’s not just LinkedIn. So that’s a big one that comes to mind for me, that I think we are excited to keep improving.

Christian Klepp  39:14

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It’s, um, it’s like many, many areas are many facets of the marketing discipline. It’s in a constant state of evolution, and especially your line of work, you’ll agree, I’m sure, where it’s working with influencers, you’re working in this like it’s an it’s an ecosystem with a lot of moving parts, right? 

Tye DeGrange  39:39

Yeah, I think, I think that’s what’s so exciting about it. I think there’s a little you have to almost be a little audacious to tackle it. You’re not just logging into meta and building out ads and not to take anything away from that, because there’s a lot to it, or the Google ecosystem, for example, there’s so much power. Are in those two just alone, as we know from where the numbers are, they own so much of the ecosystem. But I think the beauty of the partner world is there’s always another partner to recruit. There’s always a partner to optimize. There’s always a relationship to develop. And it can get complex and vast because of you know how many players are in that space, it’s challenging, but also really exciting.

Christian Klepp  40:27

Sounds almost like the Wild West, right? Like, there we go. There I go again, there I go again.

Tye DeGrange  40:32

The round barn, round barn, is there ready to help?

Christian Klepp  40:39

But I bring that up because it’s such a nice segue to the bonus question, right? Because, you know, before we started recording, you were telling me about this little like, trip that you did a couple of weeks back with, I think it was family, if I’m not mistaken, and it’s a bit of a cowboy trail that you guys went on. And I was saying that I was imagining, I was imagining, like, you know, somebody playing The Magnificent Seven in the background, and then you know that that voice, that voice comes on, come to where the flavor is right? But jokes aside, because you mentioned that you’ve been doing this for years, so obviously it has, it has a special place in your mind and in your heart, right? And I guess the question to you is, what is it that you’ve learned from going on this trail? I don’t know if it’s the same one, perhaps it’s a different one each time, but what is it, what are some of the important lessons that you’ve learned going on this trail, and how have you applied those lessons in your professional career?

Tye DeGrange  41:37

I think it not to sound cheesy, but I think a lot of it does come back to that authentic trust. There’s the cowboy code. It also can be considered maybe hokey for some people, and obviously it’s a different era, and it has pros and cons depending on who you talk to, but ultimately, I think there’s a simplicity and a humanness to it. There’s a lot of cool history on the positive around it. You know, shake handshake deals and trust that is very simple and clear and not obvious, skated by legalese and modern society, for lack of a better term. I think there’s a work ethic of effort and drive and hard work and things that are not necessarily easy. In it, there’s principles of like, you know, belief in what you’re, you know, writing for the brand, and a belief behind what you’re doing, a belief in saying and doing what is kind of aligned there in terms of integrity, you know, I think there’s a simplicity around a lot of the blue collar and business aspects of that, of the cowboy culture. No group or, you know, institution or anything is perfect, per se, but it’s been a fun, you know, honoring of like my what things my grandfather and dad enjoyed and, you know, and what they instilled in me. And it’s funny, because growing up, I I was exposed to it early, but then I was like, I got the baseball bug and got, you know, got to do a lot of the modern city. Ways of life were attractive, interesting to me, but it’s funny how, you know, raising a family and just going through life in general. I think, I don’t know, maybe it’s because I am so involved in technology, but I think there’s, I think a lot of people are seeing, like waking up to go, this is kind of a cool, I don’t know, return to wholesomeness to some, to some extent, and, and maybe to agree of some simplicity, but, but it’s cool. It’s those are some thoughts that come to mind in terms of why it’s important and special, and just something I want to keep, you know, being a part of a little bit.

Christian Klepp  44:02

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And if, um, I could just add my two cents worth, I would imagine there’s a little bit of, like, True Grit there. I think they, I think they had a movie, right, that was called, uh, yeah, came out a couple years ago, yeah,

Tye DeGrange  44:13

Yeah. It’s funny because, like, not to go around John Wayne path, but we, with a group of friends in this crew, to go see his Museum in Fort Worth, and like a lot of the preconceived notions of what I thought about him, which I didn’t, I wasn’t really a fan, to be honest. I was like, and I was too young to probably watch most of his movies, but kind of maybe caught the tail end. But long story short, his like, how he presented his story in the in that museum was really, in some ways, he was progressive. In some ways, he was doing things that were innovative. It was really, it was really cool, kind of miss, you know. And I think that you don’t always think of, you know, that that group as innovative or a thoughtful or inclusive, but in the reality that those. These are, they kind of, kind of are in some ways. And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of fun, and the two crew true good things spot on to, like, doing challenging things is good for you. And I think that’s kind of part of it. 

Christian Klepp  45:13

Probably also teaches you to be resourceful, right? Because, imagine you’re out in this trail and the weather turns, I mean, you can’t exactly like runs to the next hotel, right? Because there probably isn’t one for miles, right?

Tye DeGrange  45:26

Yeah, yeah, I’m not. I’m not gonna sit here and claim I’m, you know, we’re out digging ditches or doing things that are crazy difficult, but there is a resilience factor to it. And, you know, people that are kind of outdoor enthusiasts get that, and people that are kind of doing physical things and, you know, manual things, I think, get that too. So you can’t just hail an Uber and get out of dodge. You have to figure out other ways.

Christian Klepp  45:54

Yeah, yeah. Probably not. 

Tye DeGrange  45:57

Not yet.

Christian Klepp  45:57

Not yet. Fantastic Tye, this has been such a great conversation. Thanks so much for your time and for sharing your expertise and experience with the audience. Please quick introduce yourself and help folks out there can get in touch with you. 

Tye DeGrange  46:11

Yeah, no, appreciate you. Christian. It’s been a pleasure, enjoyed every moment of it. And yeah. Tye DeGrange, CEO and founder of Round Barn Labs, happy to be here and happy to help anybody who needs it. Best way to find me is probably through LinkedIn or or maybe just hit me up on through our website, https://www.roundbarnlabs.com/. Thanks for the intro and excited for more conversation.

Christian Klepp  46:33

Fantastic, fantastic. Once again, Tye. Thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.

Tye DeGrange  46:38

Sounds great. Christian, thank you.