Christian Klepp  00:00

We all know the breakthrough SEO (Search Engine Optimization) is challenging even for the most ambitious B2B brands today, there are so many moving parts and so many factors to consider. So how can B2B brands future proof their content for AI (Artificial Intelligence) search engines? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Andreas Voniatis, who will be answering this question. He’s a data scientist, the founder of Artios.io and the author of the book Data-Driven SEO. Find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. 

Christian Klepp  00:40

Okay, Mr. Andreas Voniatis, welcome to the show. 

Andreas Voniatis  00:46

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to share how we can get into the minds of your target buyers.

Christian Klepp  00:53

Absolutely, absolutely great to have you on the show. I think our pre interview call was absolutely dynamite. I think I should have recorded that one, but, um, that was giving me a little that wet my appetite a little bit, right? It was a taste of what’s to come. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation Andreas, because, um, I think we’re going to dive deep today, um, dive deep into, I think, a topic that’s going to be even more relevant to B2B marketers moving forward. So let’s dive right in. Shall we?

Andreas Voniatis  01:27

Thank you, Christian, yes, I’m very excited. It’s going to be a lot of fun, as well as simulating.

Christian Klepp  01:34

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so, Andreas, I would say that you’re on a mission to help B2B companies deliver this is a mouthful. Just hang in there. Data Science powered content marketing that delivers the rapid winds your C-suite demands and the long term brand growth your business needs for this conversation, why don’t we zero in on a topic that I think has become part of your professional mission? How to future proof your content for AI search engines. I’m going to repeat that one. How to future proof your content for AI search engines. So why don’t we kick up this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. Question number one is, why is breakthrough SEO so hard for ambitious B2B brands today? And question number two is, what do you believe it takes for B2B brands to succeed in the era of AI?

Andreas Voniatis  02:28

Thank you, Christian and both very good questions, if you don’t mind me saying so. So why is it so hard for B2B brands to achieve breakthrough SEO? Well, for a bit of context, we’ve had two decades of SEO playbooks where you know you would, you would simply take up your target keyword, probably from a tool like Semrush, and then you would produce an ultimate guide to that target keyword or topic. But the problem is, is that, well, if everybody’s doing that, then what think about the bigger picture from a Google or an AI perspective, all we’ve done is created a noisy internet, right, where everybody has this low effort content, there’s nothing original, because most, most of everything is just a better version of stuff that’s already out there. It’s copy paste, but it’s evolved. So you know, when you’re a B2B company that’s just adding to the noise? Well, it’s statistically incredibly obvious to any AI or traditional search engine, that your content is not really adding any significant value, and that’s that is part of the problem that makes the challenge highly challenging for B2B companies.

Christian Klepp  03:54

Absolutely, absolutely and then on to that second part, or that second question. Rather, what do you believe it takes for B2B brands to succeed in this AI era?

Andreas Voniatis  04:05

Yeah, so AI, it’s great news. And I know it sounds a bit weird for an organic marketer, stroke SEO, content marketer, to say this, but what AI has done is it’s increased the ability of search technology to really understand what the content means or the context around it. Previous attempts have been made via schema and things like that, and using mathematical analysis to estimate the probability the user is satisfied with the results and all that sort of thing. But LLMs (Large Language Models) have taken it to another level. Now this has several implications for B2B marketers. 

Andreas Voniatis  04:53

The first thing is, is that, like any PhD, when defending it, your content has to tell the world via the Internet something they didn’t know before. Okay, so that means that now it’s about high effort content as opposed to low effort content, because if you’re just producing low effort content, then you’re simply adding to the noise on the internet. And because AI, especially with inflation, rising electricity and energy costs, the shortage of AI chips that are available, it means that AI is incredibly expensive to run, even though everybody wants it and doesn’t want to pay for it. 

Andreas Voniatis  05:40

So that means that your content really has to do a lot more with than it did before. You know you’re not going to succeed in the AI search error by putting out low low effort content. So, so in terms of what high effort content looks like. You need to be putting in some proprietary value, some unique perspective. So the traditional way of doing it would be to perhaps put out a survey on a survey report on, you know, say your target topic and produce content like that, because then you’re telling the world something new that didn’t know before. You’re putting together some unique insights that can’t be obtained anywhere else on the internet.

Christian Klepp  06:36

Those are some really fantastic points. And I think there was something that you said earlier that really jumped out at me. It was creating a noisy internet, because Ain’t that the truth, right? 

Andreas Voniatis  06:48

Oh, yes. 

Christian Klepp  06:48

If you, if you look at the internet right now, you’re just inundated with all this noise. The, I think, the follow up question that I had for you Andreas, and I know this is the field that you are, or the, I’d say, the lane that you swim in. But how do you feel about companies or marketers using AI generated content, and how does that impact the search ability?

Andreas Voniatis  07:11

So having built my own LLM from scratch in believe it was 2020 around the same time that GPT 2 came out, what I’ve learned is that there’s nothing worse than a model being trained on model output. Okay, so this is one of the big things that AI search technology fears, which is to train their models on AI generated content, because it’s a bit like taking a cassette copy of a cassette copy of the original. Alright, so if the original are your target buyers talking about having conversations on the things you sell, and the search technology like AI and LLMs are modeling those conversations. Then if you’re then taking the outputs of that model output i.e. The LLM AI generated content, and you’re putting it out there on the web, then you’re not going to score very highly from an AI search perspective, because you’ll be seen as adding noise to the internet, and they don’t want to train their models on your content, so therefore you’re not going To be very visible in the AI search era, and so that. So yeah, that will lead on to a very interesting topic later, if time allows, on, on how to select your topics. But yeah, that’s so in terms of the simple answer with a short answer on AI generated content. Don’t do it for that reason.

Christian Klepp  09:08

Absolutely, absolutely. That was kind of like the answer I was expecting. But yes, I wanted to hear it from you, but, but there are, there are so many companies doing that, though, right? And you do see, you do see a pattern of the type of content they generate. It’s not very original. It lacks any kind of like brand tonality, as far as that goes. And there is, you know, to your point, if you’re trying to offer a unique and different point of view, well, guess what? AI generated content is not going to provide that.

Andreas Voniatis  09:40

No, you know that. I think from marketers, marketer we can both agree that the whole point of branding is to be memorable, distinctive and different. So if you’re producing something that is being produced by all of your competitors. Then it flies in the face of the principles of branding. Like, you know that it doesn’t sound like marketing thinking to be using AI generated content.

Christian Klepp  10:11

It’s like, it’s like, back in the day, and I’m dating myself here. It’s like we were required to study Shakespeare, and some of the classmates resorted to using, I think they were called cliff notes, which is basically showing you the summary of each of each chapter of the story, and when we would have to write essays or compositions that assess that chapter. Well, the teacher knew right away who was using Cliff Notes and who wasn’t. 

Andreas Voniatis  10:39

Interesting. It’s funny. You say that my daughter has just entered the top set for her English class for the year and she, 12 months ago, was in the bottom set. Now, you know, with the right teacher, she’s learned to appreciate the nuances of language, the linguistic devices and things like that. So I can’t imagine a cliff notes would give you the understanding and the use of language if you’re going to answer those questions very well. It might, it might be useful for giving you the synopsis, so that it gives you the context. But beyond that. 

Christian Klepp  11:21

Exactly, it basically is designed similar to AI to a certain level. It was designed to give you the summary of a chapter. So instead of having to read. 

Andreas Voniatis  11:32

Yeah. 

Christian Klepp  11:32

20 pages of Shakespearean English, it’ll give it to you in three pages. 

Andreas Voniatis  11:38

Yes, yes. 

Christian Klepp  11:40

Yeah. All right, I’m going to move us on to the next question about pitfalls that specifically content marketers need to avoid, and what should they be doing instead? 

Andreas Voniatis  11:52

What content marketers should be doing first of all is data mining, like we do your target buyer conversations online, you know. And there’s many platforms, you know, there’s a reason why ChatGPT or Open AI has a media deal with the Atlantic and many other select publishers. You know, Google’s relying on Reddit, X is relying on X, or Grok is relying on X. And so, you know, this we as marketers should be doing the same thing, because where those conversations are happening, there’s a reason why AI are using them. It’s because they’re trusted by real, real people. You know, it’s not an article written by their SEO consultant. These are real conversations, and they’re heavily moderated against spam. 

Andreas Voniatis  12:42

I’m not saying spam won’t get through, but there’s much lower chance of that. So if you’re modeling those conversations, then you’re able to produce insights much cheaper than taking out a survey, you know, with Ipsos or a similar agency. You know that those surveys, especially if you want national representation, they could easily run into the 10s of 1000s in the US or Canada. But you could, you know, the scraping tools out there, and then you do a bunch of machine learning and AI to to tease out, first of all, you can, you can subset those conversations for the topic you’re writing about. You can even classify or cluster those conversations into the topics to build, build out a topic map of what it is you’re you know, around the things that you provide as a business, as a brand. And then within those topics you can interrogate, you can build virtual audiences of your target buyer and get their views on a certain topic and create reports. And that is the type of content that succeeds in AI search.

Christian Klepp  13:56

Interesting. And I guess another pitfall to avoid is like, don’t use AI generated content, right? 

Andreas Voniatis  14:02

Yeah, don’t. Don’t use that. But also in the AI search error tools like Semrush and Ahrefs, they’re not going to work very well, because the problem with keywords is that keywords then tell you who’s searching against that keyword, right? Whereas, by data mining communities online, you can subset those conversations by your ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) or your target buyer profile, and then, based on that target buyer profile, you can get their views on the topic. And when you produce that content, based on that research, the content you produce is is going to correlate very highly to the fact checking algorithms of AI, but also it’s going to resonate with the reader when they read it and and when you put it on social media or you or you write a press release and promote it to journalists, you’re going to get press coverage. So you know, this is not just about search and AI, this is about multi channel. You know this? This is multi channel value. This is proper marketing. You know it’s not just about trying to get traffic from the search engines. 

Christian Klepp  15:13

Interesting, interesting. And sorry, I don’t mean to ruffle anyone’s feathers here, but I just from what you were saying a couple of minutes ago. Are you suggesting that is from your professional point of view? Is it going to be like the natural evolution that tools like Semrush and Ahrefs are no longer going to be as relevant as they as they were?

Andreas Voniatis  15:36

That’s absolutely true. In my opinion. I don’t think we’re ruffling feathers too much, because Semrush have produced a tool called Datos, if I’ve hopefully I’ve pronounced it correctly, and they’ve got some audience data. And again, you know, these tools are the future, because, although we don’t provide a tool because we’ve created our own proprietary technology. Again, we’re going to end up with a kind of software arms race. At the moment, we’d like to think we’re winning, even though we’re not a software provider. And the reason why I say that is because it’s one thing to profess that you’re producing insights from an audience, but the validation is key. Like, the question I would ask for any of these software providers is like, Okay, well, what’s the, what’s, what’s the margin of error for, for your insights, you know, what is the confidence interval for, you know, how the how high is your confidence interval for the insights that you’re that you’re generating for this target buyer when they have views on a certain subject? 

Andreas Voniatis  16:51

Now that’s really important, because, again, if you want your content to succeed versus a competitor that’s using a similar tool, then, if your data is better, if your analysis is better than the other competitors, then you’re going to, you’re going to be more visible, because your your data is going to correlate much more highly to to the models of AI versus, you know, alternative software providers.

Christian Klepp  17:23

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, you kind of brought up some of these factors already in the past couple of minutes, but break it down for us here, traditional SEO versus SEO for AI search engines, key differences and what content marketers need to be paying attention to.

Andreas Voniatis  17:44

So the key differences are that in traditional SEO, there were 10 blue links, okay, and what we also found is that the tactics were high volume, low effort content in and also higher word counts, tended to perform really well. Now in the AI search era, AI still relies on traditional search results, and that would explain partly why Google has started requiring JavaScript for AI search technology, or any technology to access the search results so it could block open AI from using their search results to ground their own generated answers. So in the AI search era, it’s all about high effort content, more word count is not necessarily more, because if you think about the elect, the energy costs and the chip processing costs of understanding content, it’s much better to be information rich or insight rich in your content, rather than having loads of work count, because that just costs a lot more computing flops, which is a measure of computing power for the AI to process that content. 

Andreas Voniatis  19:13

So the basic traditional SEO principles of making sure your content is discoverable, making sure it’s unique enough to be indexed or included in search engines, and it’s got authority, they still apply, but in the AI search era, we just need to up our game, so to speak. So that means high effort, content, Insight rich and multi channel value, because now AI is a lot more sophisticated to is using so many different sources. So it makes sense that if your content is capable of being liked by humans, not just by AI, which will be surfaced in terms of signals when it shows up in publications, publishing or talking about your content, then you know you’re winning. So hopefully I summarize that reasonably well.

Christian Klepp  20:18

Yeah, yeah, I’m mentally, I’ve got this chart with like, two columns, right? And then, and then I’m just trying to, like, fill them in as you’re talking, right? With the traditional and then the AI powered search, right? I almost feel also in traditional SEO people, not everybody, but a lot of people, were very obsessed with just keyword stuffing, right?

Andreas Voniatis  20:39

Well, I’m glad you mentioned that, because that was my other bullet point. Just that I forgot to mention is that traditional SEO is keyword driven, but AI SEO is or GEO is sometimes called now generational generative engine optimization. I’ve just seen that in the last two weeks, that the other difference is that GEOgeo or AI SEO is people driven, okay, so what, you know, I could see a lot of thought leaders within the SEO space, in the SEO industry, that they’re spending a lot of time and focus trying to reverse engineer the AI search results. Personally, I don’t think that’s the best use of resource or time. I think you’re better off reverse engineering your target buyers, and you should be anyway, not just, you know, we’ve been doing that for decades in market research. That’s what market research is, right? It’s getting data on your target audience, but from an online perspective and a GEO perspective, we should be reverse engineering our target buyers in order to work out what content we should be producing. And with AI, you know, you can do that at a fraction of a cost, as opposed to traditional surveys, where it can run into the thousands.

Andreas Voniatis  20:40

Well, it’s not just about the cost, but it’s also about the time. I mean, just thinking about, like, the amount of time it’s required, that’s required to put together a survey, then then unleash that, as I call it, unleash it out into the wild, and then collect all that data, synthesize and aggregate the data. I mean… 

Andreas Voniatis  22:22

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, no, there’s definitely a time aspect. Like, you know, some of the market researchers that I work with, you know that they will absolutely refuse to do any kind of work in the kind of holiday and the Christmas season for that reason, because they can’t get anybody to actually…

Christian Klepp  22:45

Not in the West anyway. 

Andreas Voniatis  22:47

No.

Christian Klepp  22:51

Fantastic, fantastic. Now, Andreas, you played that out so beautifully, and it’s such a great segue into the next question, where I’m going to ask you to, like, break it down a little bit right, like, so in terms of like, how B2B marketers can leverage this data science powered content for rapid wins. So talk to us about what are the key components required, what are the steps they need to take? 

Andreas Voniatis  23:15

Yeah. So the first thing I would recommend is stitch your SEO keyword tools that will save you a bit of money. Spend that money instead on scraping APIs (Application Programming Interface) and set them on to community forums like Reddit, X, LinkedIn, any, any I would do all the forums like we do, and then build a database in the cloud so that you can start storing quotes and profile with user profiles against them. And then do build a neural network to start feeding that data in so you can start synthesizing those conversations, and then you’ll have to obviously build successive layers within that neural network to subset for your target buyer, because obviously you’re only interested in their views. So this is an infrastructure. It might sound futuristic to some, but this is already happening or should be happening. So that’s the kind of, you know, the future needs to be built now effectively. 

Christian Klepp  24:30

Yeah. 

Andreas Voniatis  24:31

If you want to get ahead.

Christian Klepp  24:32

It’s probably a bit of both, right? Because, I mean, you know, AI is such a I’m just gonna say it’s such a continuous phenomena. It’s…

Andreas Voniatis  24:40

Yeah.

Christian Klepp  24:40

I mean, what was, what was relevant maybe six months ago has probably changed. I mean, like, look how many versions of chatGPT there are now, right? 

Andreas Voniatis  24:48

Yes. 

Christian Klepp  24:48

And a lot of people are also like myself included, are starting to use perplexity more for research.

Andreas Voniatis  24:57

Yeah, 100%.

Christian Klepp  24:58

Google, for example. And there are some that I know that stopped using Google for research completely.

Andreas Voniatis  25:05

Yeah, I see I kind of fall in both camps. If I feel that I’m about to write something that I feel well, I want a bit of an essay output, then I will tend to use chatGPT or Claude. If I’m just looking for a kind of quick answer or I want to navigate to a web page, then I will use Google. So it’s…

Christian Klepp  25:36

Yeah.

Andreas Voniatis  25:36

Google’s still in there somewhere.

Christian Klepp  25:39

Absolutely, absolutely, it’s not going to go into museum anytime soon.

Andreas Voniatis  25:43

I think was about to say, I think they’re doing a very good job in terms of keeping up. I think, if anything, they really need to. I know they’re trialing their own version of chatGPT. I forget what’s called.

Christian Klepp  25:59

I have heard this rumor as well. Yes.

Andreas Voniatis  26:03

Yeah, so you know, and Google, I’ve got, you know what Google does 27 times the amount of queries chatGPT does in any given month. So I don’t think, like you said, it’s not going to the museum just yet.

Christian Klepp  26:18

No, I don’t think so. Okay, we get to the point in the conversation where we’re talking about actionable tips and Andreas, you’ve given us plenty. I mean, I’ve been writing furiously, oh, in the past 30 minutes. But let’s just say, for instance, there is a B2B content marketer out there that’s listening to this conversation, and you want, you’d want them to, like, take away all of these things that you’ve said and implement them right like, right now, not in 12 months, not in six like, after they listen to this interview, what are like, three to five things you would advise them to do, like, right now.

Andreas Voniatis  26:57

Start scanning the forums for the well, to first of all, find out what it is that your target buyers are talking about, you know. So you know, if you’re not data savvy, as in, you know, you can’t code, or don’t have access to a coder to do all that scraping, just, just just start reading them. You know, a good, good PR person, they’re constantly reading the news of the journalists or editors that they’re trying to win coverage from. Do the same thing, and don’t limit it to forums. Also read the news. And then, you know, obviously, open up spreadsheets. Start, start, start putting them in. And you can try and feed it into say, chatGPT to, sort of say, right, look, you know, I’ve got all of these opinions, you know, cluster, cluster them into topics or you know, synthesize some insights from this to help me write better content, you know?

Christian Klepp  28:09

I mean that in itself, is dynamite stuff. And, yeah, you’re absolutely right. That’s, that’s something that I could even do after this conversation, right? So…

Andreas Voniatis  28:17

Yeah, 100%.

Christian Klepp  28:18

It’s taking that data, aggregating it quickly, and also try to produce an end result. Because I think at the end of the day, that’s, that’s what content marketers need to do. Because, you know, it’s not that they shouldn’t do research, but they shouldn’t spend all their time researching.

Andreas Voniatis  28:35

Yeah, yeah, exactly. There’s a happy balance, isn’t it? You know, you can, you could get the data. I mean, my mindset is I would always go for the near if not perfect solution, and then I tend to work backwards. So, yeah, absolutely. You know, the true market, in my opinion, always falls to research first and then move to strategy and tactics. A lot of there’s a big misconception that you know social media is or you know Marcomms (Marketing communications) is marketing, but Marcomms, as we both know, and I’m sure many of our audience knows that Marcomms is only 10% of the picture. 

Christian Klepp  29:21

Did you hear that? Marcomms people? No, absolutely, absolutely, all right, you’ve given us a lot now, right? We’ve talked about, okay, how to future proof your content for AI search engines. We’ve talked about the key pitfalls to avoid, traditional versus AI search engines, actionable tips. What are some and you know, at some point these content marketers are gonna have to show somebody who is in a non-marketing role, usually somebody that’s higher up in the organizational ladder, they’re gonna have to show them that look, I’m making progress. Yeah. Yes, this is working. Look, this is succeeding. So we’re talking about metrics here. And I call this the Love it or hate it question, right? So what are, what are some metrics that you would advise content marketers to pay attention to? 

Andreas Voniatis  30:12

Yeah, I think the metrics, there’s a couple of metrics, right? There’s the quality of the content and the volume of traffic you get to it. So I think traditionally, content marketing probably hasn’t done as good job at marketing the tactic itself, in terms of as a tool for driving conversions, whereas the kind of statistical reports that we produce on any given topic, I find that they they straddle that world very well in terms of, you know, it’s like a hybrid approach. It’s not just top of funnel, but it’s also bottom of funnel. You know, because when, when your buyers are searching for a solution, they tend to want to learn from the experiences of people who have been there before, or bought your product or bought a solution similar to what you’ve provided. And the great thing about doing these kind of reports is you can be accountable for conversions. You know, it doesn’t have to be that. That conversation of, oh well, we just send you traffic. It’s like, oh no, hang on a minute. Let’s look at both traffic and conversions and engagement and shares and backlinks and press coverage. And that’s the beautiful thing about AI, you know, content marketing for the AI search error era is that you can actually have it all.

Christian Klepp  31:42

Well, that’s a pretty bold promise. You can have it all. 

Andreas Voniatis  31:45

Well, let me, let me give you an example. So for example, for a law firm that we did some work for, we did something around inheritance issues, and so we wrote a report based on people that have been through an inheritance dispute going through, you know, who was your which family member was your dispute with? You know, what were the assets in question? You know, who did you go to for professional advice, that sort of thing and you know, I spoke to the department head once it got published, you know, within two months, we were, you know, being cited in both AI and Google and Bing search on page one. And I said, so you know, how’s it working for you? And he goes, Yeah. We’ve had seven people, some new clients, walk in saying they’ve, they’ve read the report. Some said that, for me, was an aha moment. I was just like, Oh, wow. It’s not just top of funnel. This. This works, you know, it was, it’s a surprising benefit.

Christian Klepp  32:57

Yeah, and that’s the thing in B2B, right? It’s this. It’s these, not necessarily educational pieces, but there’s also, like thought leadership pieces. It’s these reports, for example, it’s blog articles, it’s it’s content that helps to demonstrate, you know, like in your client’s case, that capability, right? That is competency, but not, not only that, but it’s also their perspective on things that are relevant to their potential customers, right?

Andreas Voniatis  33:25

Oh, definitely. I think the AI era searcher of content marketing is that we’re getting away from, you know, the traditional SEO playbook of trying to make your clients the Wikipedia for whatever industry they’re in to actually just putting out content that your audience wants to read. You know, they don’t need to know what is disaster recovery. Chances are the people you’re selling disaster recovery to already know what sort of recovery is. What they want to know is like, you know, if I buy this, you know what happens, you know. And if you can give them that assurance and be full of insight, then you know, that’s brand awareness, right there.

Christian Klepp  34:12

Absolutely, absolutely, all right, sir, get up on your soapbox.

Andreas Voniatis  34:17

Okay, here we go. 

Christian Klepp  34:21

A status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with, and why?

Andreas Voniatis  34:30

I’m gonna go with BrightEdge, doctor and Semrush.

Christian Klepp  34:36

Okay.

Andreas Voniatis  34:37

Yeah, because they’re putting out, you know, their tools are, built for the last, for the search era of the last two decades, almost the last three decades. And you know, it’s all keyword driven, and AI has just turned all of that upside down. It’s ripped up the rules to a great extent. And I see them bringing a lot of the 10 blue links thinking from traditional search into their new tools. And the way they’re kind of trying to create new AI innovations within their tech stack, this SEO software stack for the users, but it’s just it just it just does not fit. It just does not work. It’s not fit for purpose in the AI search era, and it almost demonstrates a lack of understanding for for how AI works and, and I’m not saying you have to build your own LLM from scratch, like I have with some ex Amazon engineers, but yeah, it just the status quo has to change. And I’m sure they are changing. I want to say to their credit if I actually knew, but I will say it when I see it absolutely, because I want to be a champion for others.

Christian Klepp  36:16

Sure, sure. Fair point, fair point. But you know, I think you’re also in an interesting space, if I may say, so that’s in a constant state of evolution, right? Like, it’s sometimes feels a bit transient, doesn’t it like things that, I mean, there are some things like you said, like, there’s still, still some principles from traditional SEO that still hold true. But there are, there’s this other part of the spectrum that has now completely changed.

Andreas Voniatis  36:45

Yeah, it’s quite weird, because in the last you know, even as I observe, like over two decades, you know, the principles have always been the same of, you know, making content discoverable, make making it so fit for search engines, fit for users and fit for the Internet, okay, because those are the free stakeholders whose experiences we need to maximize. But AI has so I don’t think that would change as much. It’s the tactics that always change, and it always has changed, and with AI, it’s really accelerated the need to increase the level of quality or relevance to the target buyer, when it comes to the tactical execution.

Christian Klepp  37:33

Which is a good thing, right? Because… 

Andreas Voniatis  37:35

It’s great, yeah.

Christian Klepp  37:37

You want the quality of your content to improve and not get worse.

Andreas Voniatis  37:41

I mean, 98% of the content and SEO industry are probably not very happy about it, but I’m personally very happy about it, you know. And you know, I think the internet is going to be better off as a result, you know. So that, you know, it’s always customer first in the end.

Christian Klepp  37:56

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, Sir. Here comes the bonus question. Get ready. So let’s just say, Andreas, you woke up tomorrow morning and you said, You know what? Forget all about all this, like data science and AI stuff. I’m done with it, right? If you were going to give up data science, AI search engines, data science driven, content, all that good stuff. What other passion would you be pursuing and why? 

Andreas Voniatis  38:30

I’d be a chef. 

Christian Klepp  38:31

Oh? 

Andreas Voniatis  38:32

Yeah, really would at the weekends. 

Christian Klepp  38:35

Jamie Oliver or Gordon Ramsay.

Andreas Voniatis  38:39

I would, I would go with Gordon Ramsay absolutely like I would probably, you know, take an unpaid job at a Michelin star kitchen, you know, take all the abuse that they give me just to soak everything up and learn and work my behind off. And that would be, if I wasn’t, you know, that’s what I would do, even that my tender age.

Christian Klepp  39:11

Amazing, amazing. So you were gonna say something about the weekend. Did you? Did you host that? 

Andreas Voniatis  39:15

Oh, yeah. I mean, I have over 1000 cookbooks, and I, you know, I’m always my family get a bit frustrated with me, because they always want me to cook their favorites, and I always want to cook something new. So the compromise is to cook the favorite, but with a twist, you know.

Christian Klepp  39:37

Ah, that’s interesting. That’s interesting. So what’s your favorite dish to cook? I would say.

Andreas Voniatis  39:48

I gotta say that I do love kabsa lamb or lamb kabsa is one of my favorites. It’s a Saudi dish. They serve it at weddings. I tend to love dishes that are very… 

Andreas Voniatis  40:08

Exotic, extravagant, you know, used in celebrations and weddings. It’s usually a good sign if they’re served at weddings, because, you know, it’s going to be really good or either, and the kabsa is bit like a biryani, except the rice is a bit more like a risotto as opposed to so it’s very but it’s really delicious. So highly recommended. 

Christian Klepp  40:08

Exotic?

Christian Klepp  40:32

Wow, wow. So not only are you a data scientist, but you’re a chef as well.

Andreas Voniatis  40:39

Indeed. Well, amateur one anyway.

Christian Klepp  40:43

Fantastic, fantastic. Andreas, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please quick introduction to yourself and how people can get in touch with you. 

Andreas Voniatis  40:56

Yeah. So I’m Andreas Voniatis, Founder, CEO of Artios, you can find me at artios.io, on LinkedIn. Feel free to grab me. Always happy to have a conversation.

Christian Klepp  41:12

Fantastic, fantastic once again. Andreas, thank you so much for your time. Take care. Stay safe and talk to you soon. 

Andreas Voniatis  41:18

Thank you. 

Christian Klepp  41:19

All right. Take care. Bye for now.