Christian Klepp  00:00

Every company in the B2B world wants to make sure that traffic they’re driving to their website isn’t squandered by confusing, unclear or weak messaging. They also want to see more people sign up for demos, trials or purchases. So what does it take to ensure you’re turning B2B messaging into gold? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Chris Silvestri, who will be answering this question. He’s the founder and conversion copywriter at Conversion Alchemy, who has been helping B2B SaaS (Software as a Service) companies find their message market fit. Find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. All right, I’m gonna say. Chris Silvestri, welcome to the show. 

Chris Silvestri  00:46

Hey Christian. Pleasure to be here. Excited for this.

Christian Klepp  00:50

Really looking forward to this conversation, Chris, because you know, before I hit record, we were having a lot of good discussions about, well, the right and wrong things to do when it comes to copywriting, so let’s dive right in and get this started. 

Chris Silvestri  01:05

Yeah, totally. 

Christian Klepp  01:06

Okay, fantastic. So Chris, you’re on a mission to help B2B SaaS companies make their value impossible to ignore and join the conversation already happening in their customers heads. So for this conversation, let’s zero in on the topic of how B2B SaaS marketers can achieve the right message market fit. So I’d like to start the conversation off with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. First one is, why do you believe that high converting copy goes far beyond words? And the second question is, where do you see a lot of B2B SaaS copy falling flat.

Chris Silvestri  01:43

Very good question. So to the first one. Why does copy go beyond just words? That’s also kind of the premise of my own Conversion Alchemy brand. Let’s say so. I say the words are just the base metal, and then you need the alchemy of psychology, UX, decision making to actually make those words convert. And the way, the reason I say this is because users don’t just read words, if you think about it, they need to do some work, some unpacking work. When they read those words, if you imagine one of your customers reading your copy, they come to your whether it’s a landing page or an email or an ad or even just a sales stack, or during a presentation, they come to it with some kind of past experience. Maybe they have been using a competitor. Maybe they’ve tried similar products. So when it comes time to actually read those words. They have a lot of work to do to kind of deconstruct what you are saying and see if it matches the conversation that they already have in their minds, whether it’s expectations or perceived value. So that’s what I mean by words are not enough. It’s not just about writing words, the grammar, the clarity, yes, it is about that, but then there’s much more going on in the background. 

Christian Klepp  03:10

Absolutely, words are not enough. It sounds like a love song like you, you need to put in some action as well. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And to the next question, where do you see a lot of B2B SaaS companies falling flat with their copy.

Chris Silvestri  03:28

One big problem that I see, which probably the most evident, which actually tells you that there’s issues throughout the copy or through other messaging, is probably lack of a clear and compelling value proposition. And by that, I mean mostly, if you look at any homepage, the above the fold copy that you see on the homepage, that’s basically the first thing that a user sees, unless they land on a landing page. But in general, when you land on a homepage, you’re a prospect. You see the main headline, the main subhead, and the call to action. That section is what I see being the weakest, which is pretty critical, because if you think about it, that’s the first step. Then after that, users need to scroll, need to take the next action. So that’s probably the biggest one. Companies struggle to actually express their positioning and their messaging strategy in that specific, concise piece of copy. 

Chris Silvestri  04:24

The second one is probably the balance between features and benefits. So there’s a lot of talk about you should use benefits and not features, right? But in SaaS, it’s a bit more complex, and what I see is that, yes, benefits have a lot of value, especially if you’re a SaaS or B2B company that’s been writing copy mostly centered on features, you also need to express that value, what’s in it for users. But it’s also important to match that value with the actual technicalities, the features, the specs that especially more sophisticated, advanced prospects might be looking for, especially if they’ve been using a competitor, or if they are very sophisticated and higher in awareness about the product that they are looking for, the problem that they’re trying to solve, they might be looking for specific technical features, technical names, so you want to emphasize those as well, and it’s all about visual hierarchy. 

Chris Silvestri  05:26

The probably the third one, it’s a lot of companies, especially those that have a pretty complex and technical product. For example, I worked with data integration and quality B2B SaaS enterprise as well a couple of months ago, and they had this specific problem. They tried to simplify their message rather than being clear. The problem is, when you simplify message, you remove the complexity entirely. When you are clear, you actually make that complexity understandable, which is totally different, because some, some of your ICPs (Ideal Customer Profile), your personas, might need that complexity in your copy. It’s just a matter of understanding how much of it in what places, and kind of balancing it out.

Christian Klepp  06:17

Absolutely, absolutely. Some fantastic points there. And to your I’ll start with the last point. This is part of the reason, because I do a bit of copywriting myself, but this is part of the reason why I don’t believe in writing messaging, where it’s just like one word like, it’s like a one word sentence. So it’s like, it’s like, rinse, repeat, redo, or something like that, right? You know what I mean? Because it’s, oversimplifying something, especially in B2B, that you put yourself in the customer’s shoes, or you wear the customer’s lens, as they say, it’s very hard to actually process, okay. What exactly are you trying to tell me here?

Chris Silvestri  06:55

Yeah, exactly. It goes back to what I was saying earlier, about having them unpack. The more concise, the less context, context you give readers, then the more work they have to do to kind of deconstruct and impact what you’re saying. So I would probably do something like that, maybe if you are being funny, if it’s in your brand voice, or if it’s a phrase that you’ve seen a lot of times come up in your voice of customer data. So if it’s something that’s common, commonly said among your prospects or users, I would probably try, but yeah, it’s pretty hard to convince them when you are being clever like that.

Christian Klepp  07:34

Absolutely, absolutely. I had a couple of follow up questions for you, Chris, just based on what you’ve been saying in the past couple of minutes, the first one, and this is something I see again and again and again, the classic Call to Action above the fold where it says, contact us, book a demo. So it’s immediately like asking the person to jump straight into the call. Right? Your thoughts on that?

Chris Silvestri  08:00

Yeah, I would say it doesn’t hurt, but don’t expect them that being the first thing that they click on. So expect that you actually are gonna have more convincing and more and more argument building to have to do further down the page. So maybe think of it at the beginning, especially for like a home page where you still have to introduce your product, what you do, how you do it. Maybe think of it as kind of like a secondary step that if people click on it even better, in which case you have to be ready with the next step. So where are you reading them? Is that what they might expect after reading only? Maybe the headline? So you need to keep that into consideration. And yeah, just expect that you’re gonna have to build more of your argument down the page. And that’s probably gonna be something that they might or might not click on, but it’s not gonna be their final destination. Let’s say.

Christian Klepp  08:55

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so that was the first question. The second question is, and you, you deal with us all the time, I’m sure, day in, day out, but like you look at I’m not saying everybody does this, but a lot of SaaS companies do this, right? You go to the homepage, and you scroll and scroll and scroll, and you’re like, Okay, lot of features still not quite clear on what they do, right? Then you go back to the top, and you scroll again, and it’s like, still not clear. So why do you think that is like, why do they… what about some of these SaaS companies fall into this trap of like, okay, they’re just talking about the product features, but they don’t actually address what the problem is that they’re trying to solve.

Chris Silvestri  09:37

Yeah, it’s probably going back to the conversation that they have in their minds, right? The problem is, a lot of these companies, and we were talking about this before we started recording, all of these companies, are so immersed in their own product, in the features, in the latest things that they are building, that they kind of maybe don’t think about it, or think that what matters to their. Prospects is just seeing what they’re working on and what the latest updates, latest features, or the differentiated features are for them. So that’s what they project on the page. But it’s mostly about starting from a perspective of, okay, what is the visitor expecting at this specific point in their journey, and how can I present it to them in the best way possible? So it’s rare that to match that conversation, you start with features, you probably have to start talking about your problem or maybe the solution, depending on how aware your visitors are. So you have to hook them where they are at any point,

Christian Klepp  10:39

Exactly, exactly. Okay, I’m going to move us on to the next question on what you believe are the untapped opportunities for B2B SaaS, regarding message and market fit.

Chris Silvestri  10:51

Probably one like the one of the lowest hanging fruit that I see, just because it’s in theory, if you build a product out of need, or you’re scratching your own itch, or if you saw that you could do something better in the market, there’s you probably have a strong point of view. So I think one of the most untapped opportunities is to strengthen your point of view and how it comes across in your copy. So to uncover that with my clients, I ask a lot of questions with the team members, typically marketing, sales, support, customer success, but especially the founder. So I want to really understand, what do you think the market is doing wrong, or your customers are doing wrong, or competitors are doing wrong? What drives you crazy about the industry. What do you want to see changed? And that kind of gives me that strong point of view, that we can inject in our messaging and weave it throughout all the copy that we write. So that really gives you that differentiation. And it doesn’t take ages to find out. You just need to sit down with your team members, get it out and try to get it on the page. 

Chris Silvestri  12:03

Maybe another one could be, as I mentioned, matching that motivation on the above the fold page. So I always remember Matt Lerner, is a consultant growth a book called wrote a book called Growth Levers, and he talks about how to basically think of your copy in the above the fold page. And he has this very simple formula. So imagine you’re completing the sentence. I want to XYZ, right? So if you have a product, project management software, I don’t know, you complete the sentence with I want to double the speed at which you I complete my projects. That could be your head like double the speed at which you complete the projects, right? So that puts you already in much more of a visitor, first prospect, first mindset, that allows you to write that copy in a way that matches that motivation when they land on the page. So rather than starting we do this, or we offer these features, or we are better, because blah, blah, you know. 

Chris Silvestri  13:10

So that’s probably the other easy one, and, yeah, probably the other one, other one that comes to mind just because I see a lot of companies not don’t do it. It’s create kind of a system or a process to organically start collecting your research data and make sense of it, just because that’s the research is 70% of my work. But it’s also like for marketing is essential, right? So a lot of companies run research on like one off projects, maybe every couple of months, randomly or just because they have a campaign they need to run. What if you instead create a system that allows you to consistently collect research, organize it so that you always have it available, and informs all the activities that you work on in your team, right? So this is probably the other opportunity.

Christian Klepp  14:05

Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I love it. And we’re going to talk about market research later on in the conversation. But you talked about this already a little bit when it comes to message and market fit, what are some of the key pitfalls that B2B SaaS marketers should avoid, and what should they be doing instead?

Chris Silvestri  14:25

One, one that I see quite often as well, because when I jump into projects, I do a lot of competitor research, right? So often I get these documents produced internally by the team, and a lot of them think of competitor research in terms of copying competitors, which I think the big mistake, just because you don’t know their goal, you don’t know the strategy and the their audience might also be quite different, right? So what I recommend them doing instead of copying their website, messaging or the words that they use. Using try to deconstruct it and extract from it the things that you can use. So there’s a very easy, simple framework to do this, which is, I typically divide a page into three areas, actually four core areas. The first one is, as I mentioned, the motivation, right? What brings them to the page, you can extract the kind of language that they’re using there the awareness, the level of awareness that they are addressing. So how much do their prospects know about it, how sophisticated they are, and that’s based on the language of words that they use. 

Chris Silvestri  15:36

Second layer is the value. What is the value that they this company is presenting on their website, which is often about the product, the features and the benefits, the differentiators. You can start noting those down and try to categorize and organize that value. 

Chris Silvestri  15:54

The third one is the anxiety. So how are they addressing the anxiety for prospects. And by anxiety, I mean the objections that they have, the kind of insecurities, the questions, and that’s all social proof can be testimonials, videos, reviews, but also just an easy one is actually especially if you have kind of a like a complex onboarding, or maybe you’re sending a mix of services if you explain your process or what happens after they click on the call to action, how can you set better expectations? 

Chris Silvestri  16:32

All of that is about the addressing this anxiety, and the final one is the call to action. So what types of call to actions do they use? Where are they sending people? Do you see that they are sending them to the pricing page? Maybe because they think their prospects need to see pricing, or maybe they have complex plan tiers and all of that. So try to deconstruct your competitors rather than copying them. If I’m speaking with marketing, I would try to tell them to sync a bit more often with sales and try to be present in those sales conversations, especially if you have a sales led company, sales led product. And if you have those sales conversations recorded, try to watch as many of them, just because they’re super helpful, you can see those objection. You can actually start understanding the language that prospects are using, what kind of value they find the most helpful or valuable, and especially when it comes to switching from switching from a competitor, so sales, but also the other thing, which not a lot of people do, is sync with the product team, and that’s because, in the end, syncing with all teams, it’s always going to be helpful. But also, and I’ve been and I’ve worked as a UX (User Experience) lead, so I used to watch a lot of usability tests, usability studies and research, and I found the value of actually studying how people use the product, where they stumble on how they react to kind of your feature. All of that is still super helpful in informing not only how you build the product, but also how you market the product. So I would definitely, yeah, try to convince both marketers, sales and product, to kind of work together a bit more. And that’s probably, that’s probably another one, yeah.

Christian Klepp  18:29

Okay, okay, okay, some, some really great points. And I came up with a couple of follow up questions, because, you know, why not? Right? Like to the point about call to action and CTAs, just from maybe your own experience. How many would you recommend there be on a website? Because I’ve seen websites where there’s only one call to action, and I’ve seen one where there’s, I’m not exaggerating, there’s like, six or seven, and then it’s like, yeah. What’s the general rule of thumb? How many should you have?

Chris Silvestri  18:59

So as a rule, I would always recommend to have at least one primary call to action and a secondary call to action. But also it’s important to make that differentiation, because a lot of companies, they have two call to action, but they visually, they don’t differentiate them. So it becomes hard for prospects to understand where they need to go, how and so on. So typically, primary secondary call to action. So if you have a pricing page, send them to the pricing page or sign up, and then the other call to action could be a contact, contact page or sign up, or actually pricing, right? So primary secondary, but then it depends on the page as well. So if you’re if you’re talking about a home page, then I might also have a couple of other secondary calls to action that lead specific personas to the next page they need to visit and but those call to action, rather than being bottom, maybe they could be just text links so they’re even a bit less noticeable, but still access. Table for users, and you can send them, I don’t know if you have multiple personas or different use cases, you can send them to those internal pages where they can expand on what they already what they just saw on the on the homepage, and go deeper and deeper into their own awareness funnel and until they actually persuade and convinced.

Christian Klepp  20:21

Okay, fantastic, fantastic. And here comes the second question, because you were talking about having conversations with marketing, having conversations with sales and products, and I’m sure you’ve come across this before, because I know I have what have you ended up finding that each group or each department has conflicting points of view or perspectives. How do you deal with that, in terms of like, developing the copy, if, if marketing is saying red and then sales is saying white and then product is saying no, it’s definitely green. 

Chris Silvestri  20:58

Yeah, my best advice is always go back to your market. So that’s why, for every project, I always do my research, even if my client tells me, Oh yeah, we’ve already done customer interviews or we have this survey data for like, from like three years ago, even if it’s recent, I always tell them I have my process. This is what we need to do, and I always trust the research first. Also, yeah, obviously I still want to get that internal perspective, so I speak with everyone inside the team, but at the same time, then I let my research speak. And I find often that when you tell them this is what we found, especially because they’ve never done that kind of research, they tend to trust you and to lead them, right? So that’s also very good way to bring them all together, and that’s a very big part of my job and work as well. It’s not only writing creating messaging strategy that writing the copy, it’s also bringing these teams together and aligning them on things.

Christian Klepp  22:03

Absolutely, absolutely, you know, I just realized when I said, okay, they want red and they want white and they want green, I was like, hey, that’s the Italian flag, isn’t it? 

Chris Silvestri  22:14

Yes. 

Christian Klepp  22:14

I wasn’t planning on doing that. But, like,

Chris Silvestri  22:18

Part intended.

Christian Klepp  22:20

Okay, you were talking a lot about marketing and also about conducting research. I’m gonna say so in many cases, marketers spend a lot of time conducting research, and often they end up not really knowing what to do with it. So just from your own experience, how can B2B SaaS marketers finally leverage and make good use of this, whatever you want to call it, scattered or abandoned research.

Chris Silvestri  22:48

Yeah. So the way that I see research has kind of imagine an iceberg, right? So you have the outside surface of the iceberg. The first layer that’s that, to me, is kind of the it’s kind of the layer that tells you what users say, the language, and that basically includes everything that you already have inside the company, which probably includes sales, conversation transcripts, customer support chats, or you can access reviews, either competitors or yours, or what else looking at competitors messaging, or maybe you have voice of customer for previous conversations. So all of that is kind of research, the surface layer that tells you what users say and how, what kind of language, if you don’t have anything of as far as research, I would say, start with that. So go on review websites, start collecting some reviews, collect those sales conversations, or at least start recording those so that you have some of the language and you can use it and mirror it in your copy. 

Chris Silvestri  23:53

The second layer, which is already under the water of the iceberg. In the iceberg, it’s the structural layer, and that’s more of the UX user experience layer. And maybe this comes from my user experience past as well, but I love to match and cross reference the insights that I get for messaging against the actions that users actually take on websites. I see their experience on a website is actually like a journey. They are on the website. They yes, they need to understand the words, but they also need to consume them in a way that’s frictionless. So it’s a lot about creating a clear flow of the copy they write of the pages. So from one call to action to the other, clear visual hierarchy of the different sections. So all of that, and to collect that data, I typically look at heat maps, user interaction, data analytics. I might run usability testing on a website. Yeah, those are probably the biggest ways and easy ways. So if you don’t have anything, start tracking those user interaction data with something like Hotjar, for example, and your analytics, so understanding bounce rate, time on page and all of those. 

Chris Silvestri  25:13

The final layer, which is probably the most important, even though it’s kind of the hardest to extract and to reach. It’s the deep layer, which is tells you why users or prospects act. Why do they make those decisions? And this goes back to, as I was saying, understanding their decision making process. So this is all the qualitative data that you get from customer interviews or customer survey, qualitative serving, I mean quantitative here. So qualitative surveys, extracting positioning and messaging strategy from your competitors website. So the next step, after you’ve kind of extracted the language, all of that tells you why they act, right? So when you understand and have deconstructed their decision making process, then you match it with their action on the website and the words that they use, then you bring everything together, and that gives you copy that converts.

Christian Klepp  26:15

Sounds so simple, right?

Chris Silvestri  26:18

Yeah, it’s two, three months of work when you say it sounds a bit simple.

Christian Klepp  26:23

Absolutely no, no. I mean, that was really a great way to unpack that. And I, you know, I’ve seen that time and time again, how some marketing teams are almost researching, yeah, you can say aimlessly, but it’s also because they don’t quite understand, like, well, what is this for? Right? And perhaps it’s also because they haven’t had that conversation with the customers directly, so they don’t quite understand what the challenges are, right?

Chris Silvestri  26:46

Yeah, and it’s crazy to see when we do customer interviews. So for example, for the best example, one of the latest projects, we did customer interviews, and the interviews that we do are jobs to be done interviews so we understand the progress, the before, during and after, making the buying decision, if you think about about it, those interviews actually match almost perfectly the structure of a great testimonial. So what the after? After looking at a couple of those interviews, our clients told us, Hey, guys, could you actually record some of those interviews in video that so that we can use them as testimonials. And that tells you a lot about like, they’ve never done those, and it’s such a like, low hanging fruit, but, yeah, super valuable, both for the insights that you get and the social proof. 

Christian Klepp  26:47

Yeah, especially if you already have customers that are, you know, they’re happy with what you do, or they’re, they’re happy with the product, and they’ve, they’ve, they’ve renewed the contract. And so that nature, right? 

Chris Silvestri  27:47

Yeah, and it doesn’t take, like people, maybe they avoid doing that, or are a bit resistant in doing that, because they think, Oh, we have to interview, speak to customer, customers, when actually, in theory, you need at least five, ideally seven to 10 interviews, and you already get like 80% of the insights that you need, so

Christian Klepp  28:07

Exactly. Okay, so, Chris, in our previous conversation, you told me you had this secret superpower now to read your customers minds. But jokes aside, what do you think marketers can do to better understand their customers? So in terms of things that you already talked about, like, you know, your their behaviors, their motivations, their preferences and their objections? What can they do?

Chris Silvestri  28:34

Yeah, if we had to kind of summarize it into like an actions plan or of like, clear steps, I would say first align your teams inside the company, because that’s the first step. If you’re not aligned that everybody is going to say different things, and you can’t make that research work for you unless you’re all aligned on a single goal and are clear on what you’re doing. 

Chris Silvestri  29:03

The other one is to run those jobs to be done interviews, so understand that before, during and after the buying process for customers, which means asking them questions on what were they doing, or what was going on in their life when they started looking for a solution, or what alternatives were they considering at the time, when they when they were considering you as well? Did they try other solutions, alternatives? And also, can you find out whether or not it wasn’t only about direct competitors, but also other ways of doing things, maybe the status quo. It’s an entirely different thing that you had no idea about, right? So that’s important to find out, and when it came time to actually picking you, why did they pick you? What made them choose you? Or other alternative solutions now they’re that they’re using you. What are they able to do that they weren’t able to do before, right? Is there anything surprising, anything unexpected, that they found value using you and how would they describe you if they were to recommend you? That tells you a lot about the kind of their perception of what you do, who you are. Another good question that I like to ask, it’s, what big problem does this company solve for you? And that typically gives you a lot of language that you can use for that value proposition on the above the fold of the page. 

Chris Silvestri  30:33

Once you’ve done those interviews, I would try to understand that switching, those switching costs, right? Because we need to address them in the anxiety section. So how can we make their switching costs, especially if you’re talking about B2B, where they are probably already using a solution, and try to understand that conversation that they’re already having inside their head when they land on the page, maybe they’re using another solution. So a couple of easy ways that you can use and Joanna Wiebe at Copyhackers talks a lot about these. You can run thank you page survey. So after they buy, for example, run a quick survey where you ask them, okay, what? What do you plan on doing now that you are sign up or something like that, or if you want to understand the before state, you can ask them was what was going on that make you that made you choose our solution, right? So you can map that before and after and bridge the gap. Or you can another quick one. If you have the traffic, you can run those website surveys or polls. So the little box that appears on a page, especially if it’s either a home page, if you want to understand their level of awareness. So asking questions super easy, bulleted questions like What brings you to the page today or what best describes you, so you start understanding the personas and how much they know. What do they know about your solution or the market? Or also, you can run those on a pricing page, so if maybe, after a couple seconds, 6,10 seconds, you can ask them, Are there any questions that have not been answered on the page for you? And maybe at least a couple ones, and see if you’re about to find out what’s missing, so that you can add it to the page. So aligning teams, running jobs to be done, kind of research and trying to find out what the conversation that they have inside their minds when they land on the page through these different surveys and strategies as well.

Christian Klepp  32:43

Fantastic tips, and I really hope that the listeners are going to be taking notes like I am doing right now, because this is going to be really useful to them. So thanks again for that, Chris. Okay, so here comes the soapbox question, a status quo in your area of expertise, and I think you have a lot, but I’m just asking for one, a status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with. And why let the Italian and you come out now.

Chris Silvestri  33:14

Totally. So I will be a bit current as well, so I’ll go with something that’s on the minds of a lot of people, including me, and even at the for the risk of making it look like it’s gonna make my job fail. I’m saying that the status quo, it’s that AI can’t write good copy, and I actually say that it’s possible, because I’ve been doing it, not basically to replace myself, but as a kind of like, like a tool, for the past year and a half or two. So it all depends, obviously, on your either if you say that you can’t write copy, you’re either using it incorrectly or you didn’t do the research and the strategy that goes before actually writing the copy, because without those, no AI can really help you, right? AI has knowledge of the entire Internet. So if you ask it to write, write me a landing page, or even if you use a mega prompt without research, actually real research and your own strategy, then AI is just going to write you like a generic jargon copy that doesn’t really work. So learn to use it and use it a lot, I would say. So I think Ethan Mollick is a researcher on AI, and he talks all about, well, I remember, like there’s a certain amount of hours I don’t know that, or even, like the 10,000 hours of expertise, like putting those 10,000 hours with AI and then tell me that it can write, cannot write, copyright for that, and also put the foundations in place so the research and your own strategy and. Then you’ll see that with the actual right frameworks and systems, I can actually write copy for you, or at least, like a very good first draft. Then you jump in and edit.

Christian Klepp  35:12

Whew, controversial man. Hot, hot, hot, fresh out of the oven. No, but, you know, you mentioned a lot of things where, where I would tend to agree with that, right? Like, because I’ve spoken to a lot of people. I mean, I myself, like I said, I’m also doing copywriting. I’ve spoken to a lot of people that are also copywriters, like yourself, and they’re all generally saying that they are, they are embracing the use of AI in some shape or form, to your point, right? It’s, it’s not, it’s not that you completely like, like, rejected. There are so many aspects of AI which I would tend to agree, it actually helps speed up the work. It helps expedite the work, right? Because I think one of the things that I’m sure this is, this is the same challenge you’re having. It’s, it’s the challenge of just the amount, the volume of content that you need to produce, right?

Chris Silvestri  36:08

A volume of content and also the volume of research that you need to analyze, right? Luckily, I could say, I started in an era where AI wasn’t a thing. So I did all the manual process. I did everything myself, and that probably builds some kind of muscle or intuition that’s still helping me, but I will probably never go back like it’s so much easier, especially if you already have your own process, and your use of AI is grounded in your own process, then I think it’s 10 times better. 

Christian Klepp  36:37

Correct, correct. It’s not directly related. But Chris, can you imagine, what were we doing before there was a transcription software for like…

Chris Silvestri  36:47

Yeah, what I was doing? I hired a VA that used to transcribe. 

Christian Klepp  36:53

The question is, how long did that take? That took at least…

Chris Silvestri  36:57

Yeah, exactly, yeah, days. And you also had to pay as well.

Christian Klepp  37:01

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, so here comes the bonus question. And for the audience that’s listening to this in the audio, I’m gonna apologize in advance, but I’m just gonna say that Chris is a fan of like, I’m gonna say body ink. So I think the bonus question is, if you were gonna get your next tattoo, where would it be, and what would it be of and why? Because I think for people that have tattoos, each tattoo, each visual, has some kind of like meaning that’s directly connected to something in their life.

Chris Silvestri  37:36

Yeah, so I already know the answer to this, because I’ve been thinking about it for the past year, okay, I’ve just been a bit of a like, like, a pause for from tattooing. But I wanted to do here. I still have this blank spot, you know. 

Christian Klepp  37:49

Okay, so, so he said he showed me his left arm, right?

Chris Silvestri  37:52

Yeah. So I wanted to do the Dodge Challenger logo, because I own a Dodge Challenger in ck, which is a nightmare, but another time, but it’s my dream car. Always wanted it, and it also signifies the, I don’t know, the challenge in general, which is always like, I like to embrace challenges, whether it’s through fitness or work, through understanding and learning about new technologies as well. I’d like the challenge. So, yeah, it’s probably going to be my next, next tatoo.

Christian Klepp  38:26

Fantastic, fantastic. And just for the benefit of the audience, what’s the color of your car?

Chris Silvestri  38:31

It’s a black challenger. 

Christian Klepp  38:33

Black, okay, good color. Good color. Chris, this has been a great conversation. I mean, so many useful insights, so many actionable tips. Thanks again for coming on the show and sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. Please, quick introduction to yourself and how people can get in touch with you, especially if they’re struggling with their copy.

Chris Silvestri  38:56

Yeah. My name is Chris. I run Conversion Alchemy, which is how I define it now, because it’s changed, it’s a messaging and conversion experience optimization agency, and that goes into all that we talked about right today, like experience, copy, messaging. I work with B2B SaaS companies. I’m a recovering software engineer turned copywriter. I’m into drums, I’m into meditation, into muscle cars, and you can find me on my website, https://conversionalchemy.net/ or on LinkedIn. Mostly I’m on LinkedIn, nerding out about this stuff and sharing things.

Christian Klepp  39:33

Fantastic, and we’re going to drop those links in the show notes so that they can reach out to you directly. So… 

Chris Silvestri  39:38

Awesome. Thank you so much, Christian. 

Christian Klepp  39:40

Yeah, thanks and take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. 

Chris Silvestri  39:44

You too. 

Christian Klepp  39:45

Thank you. Bye.