1
00:00:00,660 --> 00:00:03,390
Every company in the B2B world
wants to make sure that traffic

2
00:00:03,390 --> 00:00:06,150
they're driving to their website
isn't squandered by confusing,

3
00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:09,960
unclear or weak messaging. They
also want to see more people

4
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,950
sign up for demos, trials or
purchases. So what does it take

5
00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:18,420
to ensure you're turning B2B
messaging into gold? Welcome to

6
00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:20,310
this episode of the B2B
Marketers in the Mission

7
00:00:20,310 --> 00:00:23,700
podcast, and I'm your host,
Christian Klepp. Today, I'll be

8
00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:27,090
talking to Chris Silvestri, who
will be answering this question.

9
00:00:27,660 --> 00:00:30,390
He's the founder and conversion
copywriter at Conversion

10
00:00:30,420 --> 00:00:32,700
Alchemy, who has been helping
B2B SaaS (Software as a Service)

11
00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:36,840
companies find their message
market fit. Find out more about

12
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:44,490
what this B2B marketers mission
is. All right, I'm gonna say.

13
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,380
Chris Silvestri, welcome to the
show.

14
00:00:46,650 --> 00:00:49,380
Hey Christian. Pleasure to be
here. Excited for this.

15
00:00:50,070 --> 00:00:52,710
Really looking forward to this
conversation, Chris, because you

16
00:00:52,710 --> 00:00:55,620
know, before I hit record, we
were having a lot of good

17
00:00:55,620 --> 00:01:00,390
discussions about, well, the
right and wrong things to do

18
00:01:00,390 --> 00:01:03,750
when it comes to copywriting, so
let's, let's dive right in and

19
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:04,590
get this started.

20
00:01:05,489 --> 00:01:06,179
Yeah, totally.

21
00:01:06,390 --> 00:01:10,800
Okay, fantastic. So Chris,
you're on a mission to help B2B

22
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,090
SaaS companies make their value
impossible to ignore and join

23
00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:17,730
the conversation already
happening in their customers

24
00:01:17,730 --> 00:01:22,200
heads. So for this conversation,
let's zero in on the topic of

25
00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:26,490
how B2B SaaS marketers can
achieve the right message market

26
00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:29,670
fit. So I'd like to start the
conversation off with two

27
00:01:29,670 --> 00:01:33,240
questions, and I'm happy to
repeat them. First one is, why

28
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,780
do you believe that high
converting copy goes far beyond

29
00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:39,960
words? And the second question
is, where do you see a lot of

30
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:42,420
B2B SaaS copy falling flat.

31
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,640
Very good question. So to the
first one. Why does copy go

32
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,700
beyond just words? That's also
kind of the premise of my own

33
00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:56,310
Conversion Alchemy brand. Let's
say so. I say the words are just

34
00:01:56,340 --> 00:02:00,690
the base metal, and then you
need the alchemy of psychology,

35
00:02:00,690 --> 00:02:06,210
UX, decision making to actually
make those words convert. And

36
00:02:06,210 --> 00:02:11,850
the way, the reason I say this
is because users don't just read

37
00:02:11,850 --> 00:02:14,670
words, if you think about it,
they need to do some work, some

38
00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:20,220
unpacking work. When they read
those words, if you imagine one

39
00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:24,270
of your customers reading your
copy, they come to your whether

40
00:02:24,270 --> 00:02:27,780
it's a landing page or an email
or an ad or even just a sales

41
00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:31,590
stack, or during a presentation,
they come to it with some kind

42
00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:36,330
of past experience. Maybe they
have been using a competitor.

43
00:02:36,630 --> 00:02:39,780
Maybe they've tried similar
products. So when it comes time

44
00:02:39,780 --> 00:02:44,040
to actually read those words.
They have a lot of work to do to

45
00:02:44,070 --> 00:02:48,600
kind of deconstruct what you are
saying and see if it matches the

46
00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:51,960
conversation that they already
have in their minds, whether

47
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:58,110
it's expectations or perceived
value. So that's what I mean by

48
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,520
words are not enough. It's not
just about writing words, the

49
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,200
grammar, the clarity, yes, it is
about that, but then there's

50
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,750
much more going on in the in the
background.

51
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,230
Absolutely, words are not
enough. It sounds like a love

52
00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:18,300
song like you you need to put in
the put in some action as well.

53
00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:23,940
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And to
the next question, where do you

54
00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:27,720
see a lot of B2B SaaS companies
falling flat with their copy.

55
00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:32,280
One big problem that I see,
which probably the most evident,

56
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,700
which actually tells you that
there's issues throughout the

57
00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:40,440
copy or through other messaging,
is probably lack of a clear and

58
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,040
compelling value proposition.
And by that, I mean mostly, if

59
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,160
you look at any homepage, the
above the fold copy that you see

60
00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:49,890
on the homepage, that's
basically the first thing that a

61
00:03:49,890 --> 00:03:53,910
user sees, unless they land on a
landing page. But in general,

62
00:03:54,270 --> 00:03:57,600
when you land on a homepage,
you're a prospect. You see the

63
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,530
main headline, the main subhead,
and the call to action. That

64
00:04:01,530 --> 00:04:05,160
section is what I see being the
weakest, which is pretty

65
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,950
critical, because if you think
about it, that's the first step.

66
00:04:07,980 --> 00:04:11,130
Then after that, users need to
scroll, need to take the next

67
00:04:11,130 --> 00:04:15,990
action. So that's probably the
biggest one. Companies struggle

68
00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:20,310
to actually express their
positioning and their messaging

69
00:04:20,340 --> 00:04:24,030
strategy in that specific,
concise piece of copy.

70
00:04:24,690 --> 00:04:27,510
The second one is probably the
balance between features and

71
00:04:27,510 --> 00:04:30,090
benefits. So there's a lot of
talk about you should use

72
00:04:30,090 --> 00:04:33,540
benefits and not features,
right? But in SaaS, it's a bit

73
00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:39,210
more complex, and what I see is
that, yes, benefits have a lot

74
00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:43,680
of value, especially if you're a
SaaS or B2B company that's been

75
00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:47,970
writing copy mostly centered on
features, you also need to

76
00:04:47,970 --> 00:04:52,380
express that value, what's in it
for users. But it's also

77
00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:56,550
important to match that value
with the actual technicalities,

78
00:04:56,550 --> 00:05:00,750
the features, the specs that
especially more sophisticated,

79
00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:04,740
advanced prospects might be
looking for, especially if

80
00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:08,370
they've been using a competitor,
or if they are very

81
00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:13,020
sophisticated and higher in
awareness about the product that

82
00:05:13,020 --> 00:05:14,970
they are looking for, the
problem that they're trying to

83
00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:18,540
solve, they might be looking for
specific technical features,

84
00:05:18,540 --> 00:05:23,670
technical names, so you want to
emphasize those as well, and

85
00:05:23,670 --> 00:05:24,930
it's all about visual hierarchy.

86
00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:30,540
The probably the third one, it's
a lot of companies, especially

87
00:05:30,540 --> 00:05:34,770
those that have a pretty complex
and technical product. For

88
00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:41,400
example, I worked with data
integration and quality B2B SaaS

89
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,630
enterprise as well a couple of
months ago, and they had this

90
00:05:45,690 --> 00:05:51,000
specific problem. They tried to
simplify their message rather

91
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,990
than being clear. The problem
is, when you simplify message,

92
00:05:54,990 --> 00:05:58,920
you remove the complexity
entirely. When you are clear,

93
00:05:58,950 --> 00:06:02,070
you actually make that
complexity understandable, which

94
00:06:02,070 --> 00:06:05,280
is totally different, because
some, some of your ICPs (Ideal

95
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:08,190
Customer Profile), your
personas, might need that

96
00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:12,510
complexity in your copy. It's
just a matter of understanding

97
00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:16,200
how much of it in what places,
and kind of balancing it out.

98
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,130
Absolutely, absolutely. Some
fantastic points there. And to

99
00:06:20,130 --> 00:06:23,010
your I'll start with the last
point. This is part of the

100
00:06:23,010 --> 00:06:25,260
reason, because I do a bit of
copywriting myself, but this is

101
00:06:25,260 --> 00:06:28,950
part of the reason why I don't
believe in writing messaging,

102
00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:33,870
where it's just like one word
like, it's like a one word

103
00:06:33,870 --> 00:06:37,800
sentence. So it's like, it's
like, rinse, repeat, redo, or

104
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,830
something like that, right? You
know what I mean? Because it's,

105
00:06:40,830 --> 00:06:45,000
oversimplifying something,
especially in B2B, that you put

106
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,370
yourself in the customer's
shoes, or you wear the

107
00:06:47,370 --> 00:06:51,120
customer's lens, as they say,
it's very hard to actually

108
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,450
process, okay. What exactly are
you trying to tell me here?

109
00:06:55,020 --> 00:06:57,780
Yeah, exactly. It goes back to
the to what I was saying

110
00:06:57,780 --> 00:07:02,370
earlier, about having them
unpack. The more concise, the

111
00:07:02,610 --> 00:07:07,950
less context, context you give
readers, then the more work they

112
00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:10,110
have to do to kind of
deconstruct and impact what

113
00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:12,870
you're saying. So I would
probably do something like that,

114
00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:17,520
maybe if you are being funny, if
it's in your brand voice, or if

115
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,420
it's a phrase that you've seen a
lot of times come up in your

116
00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:25,290
voice of customer data. So if
it's something that's common,

117
00:07:25,830 --> 00:07:28,770
commonly said among your
prospects or users, I would

118
00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:32,610
probably try, but yeah, it's
pretty hard to convince them

119
00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:34,440
when you are being clever like
that.

120
00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:37,780
Absolutely, absolutely. I had a
couple of follow up questions

121
00:07:37,780 --> 00:07:39,790
for you, Chris, just based on
what you've been saying in the

122
00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:43,180
past couple of minutes, the
first one, and this is something

123
00:07:43,180 --> 00:07:49,930
I see again and again and again,
the classic Call to Action above

124
00:07:49,930 --> 00:07:53,710
the fold where it says, contact
us, book a demo. So it's

125
00:07:53,710 --> 00:07:56,620
immediately like asking the
person to jump straight into the

126
00:07:56,620 --> 00:07:59,410
call. Right? Your thoughts on
that?

127
00:08:00,060 --> 00:08:04,830
Yeah, I would say it doesn't
hurt, but don't expect them that

128
00:08:04,860 --> 00:08:08,070
being the first thing that they
click on. So expect that you

129
00:08:08,070 --> 00:08:12,180
actually are gonna have more
convincing and more and more

130
00:08:12,210 --> 00:08:16,230
argument building to have to do
further down the page. So maybe

131
00:08:16,230 --> 00:08:20,430
think of it at the beginning,
especially for like a home page

132
00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:24,480
where you still have to
introduce your product, what you

133
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,690
do, how you do it. Maybe think
of it as kind of like a

134
00:08:27,690 --> 00:08:32,160
secondary step that if people
click on it even better, in

135
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,190
which case you have to be ready
with the next step. So where are

136
00:08:35,190 --> 00:08:38,760
you reading them? Is that what
they might expect after reading

137
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,150
only? Maybe the headline? So you
need to keep that into

138
00:08:42,150 --> 00:08:46,020
consideration. And yeah, just
expect that you're gonna have to

139
00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:49,110
build more of your argument down
the page. And that's probably

140
00:08:49,110 --> 00:08:52,350
gonna be something that they
might or might not click on, but

141
00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:55,020
it's not gonna be their final
destination. Let's say.

142
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,870
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so
that was the first question. The

143
00:08:58,870 --> 00:09:01,930
second question is, and you, you
deal with us all the time, I'm

144
00:09:01,930 --> 00:09:05,080
sure, day in, day out, but like
you look at I'm not saying

145
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,020
everybody does this, but a lot
of SaaS companies do this,

146
00:09:08,020 --> 00:09:12,340
right? You go to the homepage,
and you scroll and scroll and

147
00:09:12,340 --> 00:09:17,170
scroll, and you're like, Okay,
lot of features still not quite

148
00:09:17,170 --> 00:09:20,800
clear on what they do, right?
Then you go back to the top, and

149
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,930
you scroll again, and it's like,
still not clear. So why do you

150
00:09:25,930 --> 00:09:28,330
think that is like, why do
they... what about some of these

151
00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,760
SaaS companies fall into this
trap of like, okay, they're just

152
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,130
talking about the product
features, but they don't

153
00:09:33,130 --> 00:09:35,980
actually address what the
problem is that they're trying

154
00:09:35,980 --> 00:09:36,610
to solve.

155
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,550
Yeah, it's probably going back
to the conversation that they

156
00:09:41,550 --> 00:09:44,310
have in their minds, right? The
problem is, a lot of these

157
00:09:44,310 --> 00:09:46,740
companies, and we were talking
about this before we started

158
00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,770
recording, all of these
companies, are so immersed in

159
00:09:49,770 --> 00:09:52,740
their own product, in the
features, in the latest things

160
00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:57,330
that they are building, that
they kind of maybe don't think

161
00:09:57,330 --> 00:10:00,630
about it, or think that what
matters to their. Prospects is

162
00:10:00,630 --> 00:10:04,230
just seeing what they're working
on and what the latest updates,

163
00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:08,220
latest features, or the
differentiated features are for

164
00:10:08,220 --> 00:10:11,520
them. So that's what they
project on the page. But it's

165
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,960
it's mostly about starting from
a perspective of, okay, what is

166
00:10:15,990 --> 00:10:19,740
the visitor expecting at this
specific point in their journey,

167
00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:24,210
and how can I present it to them
in the best way possible? So

168
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,530
it's rare that to match that
conversation, you start with

169
00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:32,400
features, you probably have to
start talking about your problem

170
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,910
or maybe the solution, depending
on how aware your visitors are.

171
00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:38,640
So you have to hook them where
they are at any point,

172
00:10:39,270 --> 00:10:43,500
Exactly, exactly. Okay, I'm
going to move us on to the next

173
00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:48,150
question on what you believe are
the untapped opportunities for

174
00:10:48,150 --> 00:14:02,190
B2B SaaS, regarding message and
market fit.

175
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,002
Probably one like the one of the
lowest hanging fruit that I see,

176
00:10:56,065 --> 00:11:00,124
just because it's in theory, if
you build a product out of need,

177
00:11:00,187 --> 00:11:03,865
or you're scratching your own
itch, or if you saw that you

178
00:11:03,929 --> 00:11:07,797
could do something better in the
market, there's you probably

179
00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:11,919
have a strong point of view. So
I think one of the most untapped

180
00:11:11,982 --> 00:11:15,787
opportunities is to strengthen
your point of view and how it

181
00:11:15,851 --> 00:11:19,909
comes across in your copy. So to
uncover that with my clients, I

182
00:11:19,973 --> 00:11:24,031
ask a lot of questions with the
with the team members, typically

183
00:11:24,095 --> 00:11:27,836
marketing, sales, support,
customer success, but especially

184
00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,832
the founder. So I want to really
understand, what do you think

185
00:11:31,895 --> 00:11:35,763
the market is doing wrong, or
your customers are doing wrong,

186
00:11:35,827 --> 00:11:39,822
or competitors are doing wrong?
What drives you crazy about the

187
00:11:39,885 --> 00:11:43,627
industry. What do you want to
see changed? And that kind of

188
00:11:43,690 --> 00:11:47,622
gives me that strong point of
view, that that we can inject in

189
00:11:47,686 --> 00:11:51,364
our messaging and weave it
throughout all the all the copy

190
00:11:51,427 --> 00:11:55,295
that we write. So that really
gives you that differentiation.

191
00:11:55,359 --> 00:11:59,354
And it doesn't take ages to find
out. You just need to sit down

192
00:11:59,417 --> 00:12:03,540
with your team members, get it
out and try to get it on the page.

193
00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:07,440
Maybe another one could be, as I
mentioned, matching that

194
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:14,400
motivation on the above the fold
page. So I always remember Matt

195
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,210
Lerner, is a consultant growth a
book called wrote a book called

196
00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:25,440
Growth Levers, and he talks
about how to basically think of

197
00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:28,680
your copy in the above the fold
page. And he has this very

198
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:32,070
simple formula. So imagine
you're completing the sentence.

199
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:37,650
I want to XYZ, right? So if you
have a product, project

200
00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:40,920
management software, I don't
know, you complete the sentence

201
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,330
with I want to double the speed
at which you I complete my

202
00:12:45,330 --> 00:12:49,020
projects. That could be your
head like double the speed at

203
00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:52,530
which you complete the projects,
right? So that puts you already

204
00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:57,900
in much more of a visitor, first
prospect, first mindset, that

205
00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:01,890
allows you to write that copy in
a way that matches that

206
00:13:01,890 --> 00:13:06,030
motivation when they land on the
page. So rather than starting we

207
00:13:06,030 --> 00:13:08,970
do this, or we offer these
features, or we are better,

208
00:13:08,970 --> 00:13:55,500
because blah, blah, you know.

209
00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:14,828
So that's that's probably the
other easy one, and, yeah,

210
00:13:14,897 --> 00:13:18,814
probably the other one, other
one that comes to mind just

211
00:13:18,883 --> 00:13:23,075
because I see a lot of companies
not don't do it. It's create

212
00:13:23,143 --> 00:13:27,335
kind of a system or a process to
organically start collecting

213
00:13:27,404 --> 00:13:31,527
your research data and make
sense of it, just because that's

214
00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:35,994
the research is 70% of my work.
But it's also like for marketing

215
00:13:36,063 --> 00:13:40,392
is essential, right? So a lot of
companies run research on like

216
00:13:40,461 --> 00:13:44,516
one off projects, maybe every
couple of months, randomly or

217
00:13:44,584 --> 00:13:48,433
just because they have a
campaign they need to run. What

218
00:13:48,502 --> 00:13:52,762
if you instead create a system
that allows you to consistently

219
00:13:52,831 --> 00:13:56,680
collect research, organize it so
that you always have it

220
00:13:56,748 --> 00:14:00,872
available, and informs all the
activities that you, that you

221
00:14:00,940 --> 00:14:05,820
work on in your team, right? So
this is probably the other opportunity.

222
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,390
Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I
love it. And we're going to talk

223
00:14:08,390 --> 00:14:13,070
about market research later on
in the conversation. But you

224
00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:16,220
talked about this already a
little bit when it comes to

225
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:19,970
message and market fit, what are
some of the key pitfalls that

226
00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:23,630
B2B SaaS marketers should avoid,
and what should they be doing

227
00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:24,080
instead?

228
00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:31,650
One, one that I see quite often
as well, because when I jump

229
00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:34,650
into projects, I do a lot of
competitor research, right? So

230
00:14:35,070 --> 00:14:39,480
often I get these documents
produced internally by the team,

231
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,560
and a lot of them think of
competitor research in terms of

232
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,610
copying competitors, which I
think the big mistake, just

233
00:14:47,610 --> 00:14:49,710
because you don't know their
goal, you don't know the

234
00:14:49,710 --> 00:14:54,480
strategy and the their audience
might also be quite different,

235
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,900
right? So what I recommend them
doing instead of copying their

236
00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:00,990
website, messaging or the words
that they use. Using try to

237
00:15:00,990 --> 00:15:05,220
deconstruct it and extract from
it the things that you can use.

238
00:15:05,610 --> 00:15:11,160
So there's a very easy, simple
framework to do this, which is,

239
00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:16,470
I typically divide a page into
three areas, actually four core

240
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:19,260
areas. The first one is, as I
mentioned, the motivation,

241
00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:22,770
right? What brings them to the
page, you can extract the kind

242
00:15:22,770 --> 00:15:26,370
of language that they're using
there the awareness, the level

243
00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:45,720
of awareness that they are
addressing. So how much do their

244
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,227
Second layer is the value. What
is the value that they this

245
00:15:40,295 --> 00:15:44,390
company is presenting on their
website, which is often about

246
00:15:44,459 --> 00:15:47,667
the product, the features and
the benefits, the

247
00:15:45,900 --> 00:17:13,710
prospects know about it, how
sophisticated they are, and

248
00:15:47,735 --> 00:15:51,762
differentiators. You can start
noting those down and try to

249
00:15:51,830 --> 00:15:54,220
categorize and organize that value.

250
00:15:54,220 --> 00:15:58,751
The third one is the anxiety. So
how are they addressing the

251
00:15:58,827 --> 00:16:03,358
anxiety for prospects. And by
anxiety, I mean the objections

252
00:16:03,434 --> 00:16:07,965
that they have, the kind of
insecurities, the questions, and

253
00:16:08,041 --> 00:16:12,648
that's all social proof can be
testimonials, videos, reviews,

254
00:16:12,723 --> 00:16:17,255
but also just an easy one is
actually especially if you have

255
00:16:17,330 --> 00:16:21,257
kind of a like a complex
onboarding, or maybe you're

256
00:16:21,333 --> 00:16:25,940
sending a mix of services if you
explain your process or what

257
00:16:26,015 --> 00:16:30,773
happens after they click on the
call to action, how can you set

258
00:16:30,849 --> 00:16:32,360
better expectations?

259
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,836
All of that is about the
addressing this anxiety, and the

260
00:16:35,903 --> 00:16:40,279
final one is the call to action.
So what types of call to actions

261
00:16:40,346 --> 00:16:44,317
do they use? Where are they
sending people? Do you see that

262
00:16:44,385 --> 00:16:48,490
they are sending them to the
pricing page? Maybe because they

263
00:16:48,558 --> 00:16:52,664
think their prospects need to
see pricing, or maybe they have

264
00:16:52,731 --> 00:16:56,904
complex plan tiers and all of
that. So try to deconstruct your

265
00:16:56,971 --> 00:17:00,875
competitors rather than copying
them. If I'm speaking with

266
00:17:00,943 --> 00:17:04,981
marketing, I would try to tell
them to sync a bit more often

267
00:17:05,049 --> 00:17:09,222
with sales and try to be present
in those sales conversations,

268
00:17:09,289 --> 00:17:13,462
especially if you have a sales
led company, sales led product.

269
00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:17,434
And if you have those sales
conversations recorded, try to

270
00:17:17,501 --> 00:17:21,405
watch as many of them, just
because they're super helpful,

271
00:17:21,472 --> 00:17:25,847
you can see those objection. You
can actually start understanding

272
00:17:25,915 --> 00:17:30,088
the language that prospects are
using, what kind of value they

273
00:17:30,155 --> 00:17:33,992
find the most helpful or
valuable, and especially when it

274
00:17:34,059 --> 00:17:37,761
comes to switching from
switching from a competitor, so

275
00:17:37,829 --> 00:17:42,204
sales, but also the other thing,
which not a lot of people do, is

276
00:17:42,271 --> 00:17:46,242
sync with the product team, and
that's because, in the end,

277
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:50,348
syncing with all teams, it's
always going to be helpful. But

278
00:17:46,800 --> 00:18:28,650
that's based on the language of
words that they use.

279
00:17:50,416 --> 00:17:54,521
also, and I've been and I've
worked as a UX (User Experience)

280
00:17:54,589 --> 00:17:58,627
lead, so I used to watch a lot
of usability tests, usability

281
00:17:58,695 --> 00:18:02,397
studies and research, and I
found the value of actually

282
00:18:02,464 --> 00:18:06,368
studying how people use the
product, where they stumble on

283
00:18:06,435 --> 00:18:10,474
how they react to kind of your
feature. All of that is still

284
00:18:10,541 --> 00:18:14,714
super helpful in informing not
only how you build the product,

285
00:18:14,782 --> 00:18:18,753
but also how you market the
product. So I would definitely,

286
00:18:18,820 --> 00:18:22,792
yeah, try to convince both
marketers, sales and product, to

287
00:18:22,859 --> 00:18:26,494
kind of work together a bit
more. And that's probably,

288
00:18:26,561 --> 00:18:28,850
that's probably another one, yeah.

289
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:32,720
Okay, okay, okay, some, some
really great points. And I came

290
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,120
up with a couple of follow up
questions, because, you know,

291
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:39,800
why not? Right? Like to the
point about call to action and

292
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,750
CTAs, just from maybe your own
experience. How many would you

293
00:18:44,750 --> 00:18:49,190
recommend there be on a website?
Because I've seen websites where

294
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:52,400
there's only one call to action,
and I've seen one where there's,

295
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,580
I'm not exaggerating, there's
like, six or seven, and then

296
00:18:55,580 --> 00:18:58,820
it's like, yeah. What's the
general rule of thumb? How many

297
00:18:58,820 --> 00:18:59,330
should you have?

298
00:18:59,870 --> 00:19:03,350
So as a rule, I would always
recommend to have at least one

299
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:06,110
primary call to action and a
secondary call to action. But

300
00:19:06,110 --> 00:19:09,140
also it's important to make that
differentiation, because a lot

301
00:19:09,140 --> 00:19:12,320
of companies, they have two call
to action, but they visually,

302
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:17,450
they don't differentiate them.
So it becomes hard for prospects

303
00:19:17,450 --> 00:19:20,990
to understand where they need to
go, how and so on. So typically,

304
00:19:20,990 --> 00:19:24,620
primary secondary call to
action. So if you have a pricing

305
00:19:24,620 --> 00:19:28,640
page, send them to the pricing
page or sign up, and then the

306
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,210
other call to action could be a
contact, contact page or sign

307
00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:36,680
up, or actually pricing, right?
So primary secondary, but then

308
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:41,030
it depends on the page as well.
So if you're if you're talking

309
00:19:41,030 --> 00:19:45,290
about a home page, then I might
also have a couple of other

310
00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:49,520
secondary calls to action that
lead specific personas to the

311
00:19:49,550 --> 00:19:53,690
next page they need to visit and
but those call to action, rather

312
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:56,360
than being bottom, maybe they
could be just text links so

313
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,960
they're even a bit less
noticeable, but still access.

314
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,750
Table for users, and you can
send them, I don't know if you

315
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:06,260
have multiple personas or
different use cases, you can

316
00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:10,520
send them to those internal
pages where they can expand on

317
00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:13,820
what they already what they just
saw on the on the homepage, and

318
00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:18,110
go deeper and deeper into their
own awareness funnel and until

319
00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:20,420
they actually persuade and
convinced.

320
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,950
Okay, fantastic, fantastic. And
here comes the second question,

321
00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:29,600
because you were talking about
having conversations with

322
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,470
marketing, having conversations
with sales and products, and I'm

323
00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:35,840
sure you've come across this
before, because I know I have

324
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:41,570
what have you ended up finding
that each group or each

325
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:46,370
department has conflicting
points of view or perspectives.

326
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,340
How do you how do you deal with
that, in terms of like,

327
00:20:49,340 --> 00:20:53,360
developing the copy, if, if
marketing is saying red and then

328
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,930
sales is saying white and then
product is saying no, it's

329
00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:57,800
definitely green.

330
00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:02,880
Yeah, my, my best advice is
always go back to your market.

331
00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:06,630
So that's why, for every
project, I always do my

332
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:10,020
research, even if my client
tells me, Oh yeah, we've already

333
00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:13,200
done customer interviews or we
have this survey data for like,

334
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:16,740
from like three years ago, even
if it's recent, I always tell

335
00:21:16,740 --> 00:21:21,060
them I have my process. This is
what we need to do, and I always

336
00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:27,210
trust the research first. Also,
yeah, obviously I still want to

337
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,110
get that internal perspective,
so I speak with everyone inside

338
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:35,160
the team, but at the same time,
then I let my research speak.

339
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:40,140
And I find often that when you
tell them this is what we found,

340
00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:44,310
especially because they've never
done that kind of research, they

341
00:21:44,430 --> 00:21:48,450
tend to trust you and to lead
them, right? So that's also very

342
00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:51,300
good way to bring them all
together, and that's a very big

343
00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:55,590
part of my job and work as well.
It's not only writing creating

344
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:58,710
messaging strategy that writing
the copy, it's also bringing

345
00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:01,590
these teams together and
aligning them on things.

346
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,660
Absolutely, absolutely, you
know, I just realized when I

347
00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:09,660
said, okay, they want red and
they want white and they want

348
00:22:09,660 --> 00:22:11,670
green, I was like, hey, that's
the Italian flag, isn't it?

349
00:22:14,370 --> 00:22:14,880
Yes.

350
00:22:14,910 --> 00:22:16,530
I wasn't planning on doing that.
But, like,

351
00:22:18,030 --> 00:22:19,020
Part intended.

352
00:22:20,850 --> 00:22:25,590
Okay, you were talking a lot
about marketing and also about

353
00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:31,560
conducting research. I'm gonna
say so in many cases, marketers

354
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:35,250
spend a lot of time conducting
research, and often they end up

355
00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:37,710
not really knowing what to do
with it. So just from your own

356
00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:42,120
experience, how can B2B SaaS
marketers finally leverage and

357
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,930
make good use of this, whatever
you want to call it, scattered

358
00:22:45,930 --> 00:22:47,130
or abandoned research.

359
00:22:48,020 --> 00:22:51,890
Yeah. So the way that I see, I
see research has kind of imagine

360
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,050
an iceberg, right? So you have
the outside surface of the

361
00:22:57,050 --> 00:23:02,030
iceberg. The first layer that's
that, to me, is kind of the it's

362
00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:04,970
kind of the layer that tells you
what users say, the language,

363
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,730
and that basically includes
everything that you already have

364
00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:10,190
inside the company, which
probably includes sales,

365
00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:14,990
conversation transcripts,
customer support chats, or you

366
00:23:14,990 --> 00:23:20,810
can access reviews, either
competitors or yours, or what

367
00:23:20,810 --> 00:23:25,490
else looking at competitors
messaging, or maybe you have

368
00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:29,030
voice of customer for previous
conversations. So all of that is

369
00:23:29,030 --> 00:23:33,590
kind of research, the the
surface layer that tells you

370
00:23:33,620 --> 00:23:37,940
what users say and how, what
kind of language, if you don't

371
00:23:37,940 --> 00:23:40,970
have anything of as far as
research, I would say, start

372
00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:44,060
with that. So go on review
websites, start collecting some

373
00:23:44,060 --> 00:23:48,020
reviews, collect those sales
conversations, or at least start

374
00:23:48,020 --> 00:23:51,890
recording those so that you have
some of the language and you can

375
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,960
use it and mirror it in your
copy.

376
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,410
The second layer, which is
already under the water of the

377
00:23:57,410 --> 00:24:03,050
iceberg. In the iceberg, it's
the structural layer, and that's

378
00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:07,460
more of the UX user experience
layer. And maybe this comes from

379
00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:13,940
my user experience past as well,
but I love to match and cross

380
00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:20,120
reference the insights that I
get for messaging against the

381
00:24:20,330 --> 00:24:25,010
the actions that users actually
take on websites. I see their

382
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,280
experience on a website is
actually like a journey. They

383
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,650
are on the website. They yes,
they need to understand the

384
00:24:30,650 --> 00:24:33,650
words, but they also need to
consume them in a way that's

385
00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:38,660
frictionless. So it's a lot
about creating a clear flow of

386
00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:41,780
the copy they write of the
pages. So from one call to

387
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:45,080
action to the other, clear
visual hierarchy of the

388
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,400
different sections. So all of
that, and to collect that data,

389
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,810
I typically look at heat maps,
user interaction, data

390
00:24:53,900 --> 00:25:01,160
analytics. I might run usability
testing on a website. Yeah,

391
00:25:01,220 --> 00:25:03,830
those are probably the biggest
ways and easy ways. So if you

392
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:06,440
don't have anything, start
tracking those user interaction

393
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,310
data with something like Hotjar,
for example, and your analytics,

394
00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:13,970
so understanding bounce rate,
time on page and all of those.

395
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,640
The final layer, which is
probably the most important,

396
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,070
even though it's kind of the
hardest to extract and to reach.

397
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,640
It's the deep layer, which is
tells you why users or prospects

398
00:25:21,670 --> 00:25:33,310
act. Why do they make those
decisions? And this goes back

399
00:25:33,340 --> 00:25:36,190
to, as I was saying,
understanding their decision

400
00:25:36,190 --> 00:25:40,030
making process. So this is all
the qualitative data that you

401
00:25:40,030 --> 00:25:45,010
get from customer interviews or
customer survey, qualitative

402
00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:48,970
serving, I mean quantitative
here. So qualitative surveys,

403
00:25:50,170 --> 00:25:53,440
extracting positioning and
messaging strategy from your

404
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,220
competitors website. So the next
step, after you've kind of

405
00:25:57,220 --> 00:26:01,060
extracted the language, all of
that tells you why they act,

406
00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:05,110
right? So when you understand
and have deconstructed their

407
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:09,340
decision making process, then
you match it with their action

408
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:12,250
on the website and the words
that they use, then you bring

409
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,770
everything together, and that
gives you copy that converts.

410
00:26:15,670 --> 00:26:16,960
Sounds so simple, right?

411
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,050
Yeah, it's two, three months of
work when you say it sounds a

412
00:26:23,050 --> 00:26:23,500
bit simple.

413
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,520
Absolutely no, no. I mean, that
was really a great way to unpack

414
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,460
that. And I, you know, I've seen
that time and time again, how

415
00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:35,080
some marketing teams are almost
researching, yeah, you can say

416
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,330
aimlessly, but it's also because
they don't quite understand,

417
00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:40,720
like, well, what is this for?
Right? And perhaps it's also

418
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,750
because they haven't had that
conversation with the customers

419
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:46,270
directly, so they don't quite
understand what the challenges

420
00:26:46,270 --> 00:26:47,080
are, right?

421
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,779
Yeah, and it's crazy to see when
we do customer interviews. So

422
00:26:47,000 --> 00:27:39,440
Yeah, especially if you already
have customers that are, you

423
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,044
for example, for the best
example, one of the latest

424
00:26:54,105 --> 00:26:57,555
projects, we did customer
interviews, and the interviews

425
00:26:57,617 --> 00:27:01,436
that we do are jobs to be done
interviews so we understand the

426
00:27:01,498 --> 00:27:05,009
progress, the before, during and
after, making the buying

427
00:27:05,071 --> 00:27:08,459
decision, if you think about
about it, those interviews

428
00:27:08,521 --> 00:27:11,970
actually match almost perfectly
the structure of a great

429
00:27:12,032 --> 00:27:15,728
testimonial. So what the after?
After looking at a couple of

430
00:27:15,790 --> 00:27:19,424
those interviews, our clients
told us, Hey, guys, could you

431
00:27:19,486 --> 00:27:23,305
actually record some of those
interviews in video that so that

432
00:27:23,367 --> 00:27:27,248
we can use them as testimonials.
And that tells you a lot about

433
00:27:27,309 --> 00:27:30,821
like, they've never done those,
and it's such a like, low

434
00:27:30,882 --> 00:27:34,763
hanging fruit, but, yeah, super
valuable, both for the insights

435
00:27:34,825 --> 00:27:36,920
that you get and the social proof.

436
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,590
know, they're happy with what
you do, or they're, they're

437
00:27:42,590 --> 00:27:45,500
happy with the product, and
they've, they've, they've

438
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:47,900
renewed the contract. And so
that nature, right?

439
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:52,040
Yeah, and it doesn't take, like
people, maybe they avoid doing

440
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,320
that, or are a bit resistant in
doing that, because they think,

441
00:27:54,350 --> 00:27:57,740
Oh, we have to interview, speak
to customer, customers, when

442
00:27:57,740 --> 00:28:02,450
actually, in theory, you need at
least five, ideally seven to 10

443
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,420
interviews, and you already get
like 80% of the insights that

444
00:28:05,420 --> 00:28:06,200
you need, so

445
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:12,650
Exactly. Okay, so, Chris, in our
previous conversation, you told

446
00:28:12,650 --> 00:28:16,670
me you had this secret
superpower now to read your

447
00:28:16,670 --> 00:28:22,700
customers minds. But jokes
aside, what do you think

448
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:25,640
marketers can do to better
understand their customers? So

449
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,620
in terms of things that you
already talked about, like, you

450
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:31,520
know, your their behaviors,
their their motivations, their

451
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,560
preferences and their
objections? What can they do?

452
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:39,690
Yeah, if we had to kind of
summarize it into like an

453
00:28:39,690 --> 00:28:46,470
actions plan or of like, clear
steps, I would say first align

454
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:49,440
your teams inside the company,
because that's the first step.

455
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,260
If you're not aligned that
everybody is going to say

456
00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:56,610
different things, and you can't
make that research work for you

457
00:28:56,730 --> 00:29:01,980
unless you're all aligned on a
single goal and are clear on

458
00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:02,670
what you're doing.

459
00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:07,380
The other one is to run those
jobs to be done interviews, so

460
00:29:07,380 --> 00:29:11,460
understand that before, during
and after the buying process for

461
00:29:12,030 --> 00:29:17,160
customers, which means asking
them questions on what were they

462
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,240
doing, or what was going on in
their life when they started

463
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,140
looking for a solution, or what
alternatives were they

464
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:28,710
considering at the time, when
they when they were considering

465
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:33,360
you as well? Did they try other
solutions, alternatives? And

466
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,890
also, can you find out whether
or not it wasn't only about

467
00:29:37,890 --> 00:29:40,620
direct competitors, but also
other ways of doing things,

468
00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:44,040
maybe the status quo. It's an
entirely different thing that

469
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,800
you had no idea about, right? So
that's important to find out,

470
00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:51,990
and when it came time to
actually picking you, why did

471
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:54,930
they pick you? What made them
choose you? Or other alternative

472
00:29:54,930 --> 00:30:00,240
solutions now they're that
they're using you. What are they

473
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,360
able to do that they weren't
able to do before, right? Is

474
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,080
there anything surprising,
anything unexpected, that they

475
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,810
found value using you and and
how would they describe you if

476
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,900
they were to recommend you? That
tells you a lot about the kind

477
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:20,010
of the their perception of what
you do, who you are. Another

478
00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:23,790
good question that I like to
ask, it's, what big problem does

479
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,270
this company solve for you? And
that typically gives you a lot

480
00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:30,030
of language that you can use for
that value proposition on the

481
00:30:30,030 --> 00:30:31,740
above the fold of the page.

482
00:30:33,310 --> 00:30:38,350
Once you've done those
interviews, I would try to

483
00:30:38,590 --> 00:30:43,090
understand that switching, those
switching costs, right? Because

484
00:30:43,090 --> 00:30:47,080
we need to address them in the
anxiety section. So how can we

485
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,180
make their switching costs,
especially if you're talking

486
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:52,300
about B2B, where they are
probably already using a

487
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:56,140
solution, and try to understand
that that conversation that

488
00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:58,810
they're already having inside
their head when they land on the

489
00:30:58,810 --> 00:31:01,150
page, maybe they're using
another solution. So a couple of

490
00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:06,520
easy ways that you can use and
and Joanna Wiebe at Copyhackers

491
00:31:06,550 --> 00:31:10,480
talks a lot about these. You can
run thank you page survey. So

492
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,930
after they buy, for example, run
a quick survey where you ask

493
00:31:13,930 --> 00:31:18,430
them, okay, what? What do you
plan on doing now that you are

494
00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:21,880
sign up or something like that,
or if you want to understand the

495
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,350
before state, you can ask them
was what was going on that make

496
00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:29,830
you that made you choose our
solution, right? So you can map

497
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:34,210
that before and after and bridge
the gap. Or you can another

498
00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:37,540
quick one. If you have the
traffic, you can run those

499
00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:41,170
website surveys or polls. So the
little box that appears on a

500
00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:45,730
page, especially if it's either
a home page, if you want to

501
00:31:45,730 --> 00:31:49,300
understand their level of
awareness. So asking questions

502
00:31:49,780 --> 00:31:53,440
super easy, bulleted questions
like What brings you to the page

503
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,550
today or what best describes
you, so you start understanding

504
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:01,630
the personas and how much they
know. What do they know about

505
00:32:01,660 --> 00:32:05,410
your solution or the market? Or
also, you can run those on a

506
00:32:05,410 --> 00:32:10,960
pricing page, so if maybe, after
a couple seconds, 6,10 seconds,

507
00:32:11,230 --> 00:32:15,820
you can ask them, Are there any
questions that have not been

508
00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:18,790
answered on the page for you?
And maybe at least a couple

509
00:32:18,790 --> 00:32:24,700
ones, and see if you're about to
find out what's missing, so that

510
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:29,170
you can add it to the page. So
aligning teams, running jobs to

511
00:32:29,170 --> 00:32:34,750
be done, kind of research and
try to trying to find out that

512
00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:37,420
what the conversation that they
have inside their minds when

513
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:41,080
they land on the page through
these different surveys and

514
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:42,250
strategies as well.

515
00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:46,410
Fantastic tips, and I really
hope that the listeners are

516
00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:50,250
going to be taking notes like I
am doing right now, because this

517
00:32:50,250 --> 00:32:52,980
is going to be really useful to
them. So thanks again for that,

518
00:32:52,980 --> 00:33:01,170
Chris. Okay, so here comes the
soapbox question, a status quo

519
00:33:01,170 --> 00:33:03,930
in your area of expertise, and I
think you have a lot, but I'm

520
00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:08,070
just asking for one, a status
quo in your area of expertise

521
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:11,670
that you passionately disagree
with. And why let the Italian

522
00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:12,660
and you come out now.

523
00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:19,830
Totally. So I will be a bit
current as well, so I'll go with

524
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:23,370
something that's on the minds of
a lot of people, including me,

525
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:30,180
and even at the for the risk of
making it look like it's gonna

526
00:33:30,990 --> 00:33:35,250
make my job fail. I'm saying
that the status quo, it's that

527
00:33:35,250 --> 00:33:40,620
AI can't write good copy, and I
actually say that it's possible,

528
00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:45,120
because I've been doing it, not
basically to replace myself, but

529
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,980
as a kind of like, like a tool,
for the past year and a half or

530
00:33:49,980 --> 00:33:56,310
two. So it all depends,
obviously, on your either if you

531
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:58,710
say that you can't write copy,
you're either using it

532
00:33:58,710 --> 00:34:03,480
incorrectly or you didn't do the
research and the strategy that

533
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,800
goes before actually writing the
copy, because without those, no

534
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,060
AI can really help you, right?
AI has knowledge of the entire

535
00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:15,750
Internet. So if you ask it to
write, write me a landing page,

536
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:18,960
or even if you use a mega prompt
without research, actually real

537
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,100
research and your own strategy,
then AI is just going to write

538
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:27,840
you like a generic jargon copy
that doesn't really work. So

539
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,350
learn to use it and use it a
lot, I would say. So I think

540
00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:39,900
Ethan Mollick is a researcher on
AI, and he talks all about,

541
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,770
well, I remember, like there's a
certain amount of hours I don't

542
00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:46,500
know that, or even, like the
10,000 hours of expertise, like

543
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:49,560
putting those 10,000 hours with
AI and then tell me that it can

544
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,390
write, cannot write, copyright
for that, and also put the

545
00:34:54,390 --> 00:34:59,100
foundations in place so the
research and your own strategy

546
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:03,480
and. Then you'll see that with
the actual right frameworks and

547
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,650
systems, I can actually write
copy for you, or at least, like

548
00:35:07,650 --> 00:35:10,410
a very good first draft. Then
you jump in and edit.

549
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:20,740
Whew, controversial man. Hot,
hot, hot, fresh out of the oven.

550
00:35:21,070 --> 00:35:25,390
No, but, you know, you you
mentioned a lot of things where,

551
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:28,660
where I would tend to agree with
that, right? Like, because I've

552
00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:31,420
spoken to a lot of people. I
mean, I myself, like I said, I'm

553
00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:34,180
also doing copywriting. I've
spoken to a lot of people that

554
00:35:34,180 --> 00:35:37,450
are also copywriters, like
yourself, and they're all

555
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,010
generally saying that they are,
they are embracing the use of AI

556
00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:45,010
in some shape or form, to your
point, right? It's, it's not,

557
00:35:45,310 --> 00:35:47,980
it's not that you completely
like, like, rejected. There are

558
00:35:47,980 --> 00:35:53,140
so many aspects of AI which I
would tend to agree, it actually

559
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:57,100
helps speed up the work. It
helps expedite the work, right?

560
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,380
Because I think one of the
things that I'm sure this is,

561
00:35:59,410 --> 00:36:02,110
this is the same challenge
you're having. It's, it's the

562
00:36:02,110 --> 00:36:06,130
challenge of just the amount,
the volume of content that you

563
00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:08,260
need to produce, right?

564
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,530
A volume of content and also the
volume of research that you need

565
00:36:11,530 --> 00:36:16,480
to analyze, right? Luckily, I
could say, I started in an era

566
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,660
where AI wasn't a thing. So I
did all the manual process. I

567
00:36:19,660 --> 00:36:22,690
did everything myself, and that
probably builds some kind of

568
00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:26,950
muscle or intuition that's still
helping me, but I will probably

569
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:30,220
never go back like it's so much
easier, especially if you

570
00:36:30,220 --> 00:36:34,930
already have your own process,
and your use of AI is grounded

571
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,630
in your own process, then I
think it's 10 times better.

572
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,110
Correct, correct. It's not
directly related. But Chris, can

573
00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:44,950
you imagine, what were we doing
before there was a transcription

574
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:46,060
software for like...

575
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,310
Yeah, what I was doing? I hired
a VA that used to transcribe.

576
00:36:53,860 --> 00:36:56,380
The question is, how long did
that take? That took at least...

577
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:01,540
Yeah, exactly, yeah, days. And
you also had to pay as well.

578
00:37:01,590 --> 00:37:06,540
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, so
here comes the bonus question.

579
00:37:06,540 --> 00:37:09,690
And for the audience that's
listening to this in the audio,

580
00:37:09,810 --> 00:37:13,170
I'm gonna apologize in advance,
but I'm just gonna say that

581
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,480
Chris is a fan of like, I'm
gonna say body ink. So I think

582
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,740
the bonus question is, if you
were gonna get your next tattoo,

583
00:37:22,980 --> 00:37:26,820
where would it be, and what
would it be of and why? Because

584
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:30,990
I think for people that have
tattoos, each each tattoo, each

585
00:37:30,990 --> 00:37:34,050
visual, has some kind of like
meaning that's directly

586
00:37:34,050 --> 00:37:35,610
connected to something in their
life.

587
00:37:36,110 --> 00:37:39,350
Yeah, so I already know the
answer to this, because I've

588
00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:42,260
been thinking about it for the
past year, okay, I've just been

589
00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:46,940
a bit of a like, like, a pause
for from tattooing. But I wanted

590
00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:49,580
to do here. I still have this
blank spot, you know.

591
00:37:49,580 --> 00:37:52,730
Okay, so, so he said he showed
me his left arm, right?

592
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:59,350
Yeah. So I wanted to do the
Dodge Challenger logo, because I

593
00:37:59,350 --> 00:38:02,020
own a Dodge Challenger in ck,
which is a nightmare, but

594
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,270
another time, but it's my my
dream car. Always wanted it, and

595
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:11,980
it also signifies the, I don't
know, the challenge in general,

596
00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:15,700
which is always like, I like to
embrace challenges, whether it's

597
00:38:16,450 --> 00:38:20,410
through fitness or work, through
understanding and learning about

598
00:38:20,410 --> 00:38:23,620
new technologies as well. I'd
like the challenge. So, yeah,

599
00:38:23,650 --> 00:38:26,110
it's probably going to be my
next, next tatoo.

600
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:29,830
Fantastic, fantastic. And just
for the benefit of the audience,

601
00:38:29,830 --> 00:38:31,540
what's the color of your car?

602
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:33,220
It's a black challenger.

603
00:38:33,220 --> 00:38:39,940
Black, okay, good color. Good
color. Chris, this has been a

604
00:38:39,940 --> 00:38:43,180
great conversation. I mean, so
many useful insights, so many

605
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:46,210
actionable tips. Thanks again
for coming on the show and

606
00:38:46,750 --> 00:38:49,600
sharing your experience and
expertise with the listeners.

607
00:38:50,050 --> 00:38:53,200
Please, quick introduction to
yourself and how people can get

608
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,060
in touch with you, especially if
they're struggling with their

609
00:38:55,060 --> 00:38:55,480
copy.

610
00:38:56,740 --> 00:39:00,310
Yeah. My name is Chris. I run
Conversion Alchemy, which is how

611
00:39:00,310 --> 00:39:04,000
I define it now, because it's
changed, it's a messaging and

612
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,620
conversion experience
optimization agency, and that

613
00:39:08,620 --> 00:39:11,770
goes into all that we talked
about right today, like

614
00:39:11,770 --> 00:39:17,170
experience, copy, messaging. I
work with B2B SaaS companies.

615
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,830
I'm a recovering software
engineer turned copywriter. I'm

616
00:39:20,830 --> 00:39:24,490
into drums, I'm into meditation,
into muscle cars, and you can

617
00:39:24,490 --> 00:39:27,940
find me on my website,
https://conversionalchemy.net/

618
00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:32,470
or on LinkedIn. Mostly I'm on
LinkedIn, nerding out about this

619
00:39:32,470 --> 00:39:33,760
stuff and sharing things.

620
00:39:33,820 --> 00:39:36,160
Fantastic, and we're going to
drop those links in the show

621
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,950
notes so that they can reach out
to you directly. So...

622
00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:40,360
Awesome. Thank you so much,
Christian.

623
00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:43,690
Yeah, thanks and take care, stay
safe and talk to you soon.

624
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:44,860
You too.

625
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:46,330
Thank you. Bye.