Every company in the B2B world wants to make sure that traffic
they're driving to their website isn't squandered by confusing,
unclear or weak messaging. They also want to see more people
sign up for demos, trials or purchases. So what does it take
to ensure you're turning B2B messaging into gold? Welcome to
this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission
podcast, and I'm your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I'll be
talking to Chris Silvestri, who will be answering this question.
He's the founder and conversion copywriter at Conversion
Alchemy, who has been helping B2B SaaS (Software as a Service)
companies find their message market fit. Find out more about
what this B2B marketers mission is. All right, I'm gonna say.
Chris Silvestri, welcome to the show.
Hey Christian. Pleasure to be here. Excited for this.
Really looking forward to this conversation, Chris, because you
know, before I hit record, we were having a lot of good
discussions about, well, the right and wrong things to do
when it comes to copywriting, so let's, let's dive right in and
get this started.
Yeah, totally.
Okay, fantastic. So Chris, you're on a mission to help B2B
SaaS companies make their value impossible to ignore and join
the conversation already happening in their customers
heads. So for this conversation, let's zero in on the topic of
how B2B SaaS marketers can achieve the right message market
fit. So I'd like to start the conversation off with two
questions, and I'm happy to repeat them. First one is, why
do you believe that high converting copy goes far beyond
words? And the second question is, where do you see a lot of
B2B SaaS copy falling flat.
Very good question. So to the first one. Why does copy go
beyond just words? That's also kind of the premise of my own
Conversion Alchemy brand. Let's say so. I say the words are just
the base metal, and then you need the alchemy of psychology,
UX, decision making to actually make those words convert. And
the way, the reason I say this is because users don't just read
words, if you think about it, they need to do some work, some
unpacking work. When they read those words, if you imagine one
of your customers reading your copy, they come to your whether
it's a landing page or an email or an ad or even just a sales
stack, or during a presentation, they come to it with some kind
of past experience. Maybe they have been using a competitor.
Maybe they've tried similar products. So when it comes time
to actually read those words. They have a lot of work to do to
kind of deconstruct what you are saying and see if it matches the
conversation that they already have in their minds, whether
it's expectations or perceived value. So that's what I mean by
words are not enough. It's not just about writing words, the
grammar, the clarity, yes, it is about that, but then there's
much more going on in the in the background.
Absolutely, words are not enough. It sounds like a love
song like you you need to put in the put in some action as well.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And to the next question, where do you
see a lot of B2B SaaS companies falling flat with their copy.
One big problem that I see, which probably the most evident,
which actually tells you that there's issues throughout the
copy or through other messaging, is probably lack of a clear and
compelling value proposition. And by that, I mean mostly, if
you look at any homepage, the above the fold copy that you see
on the homepage, that's basically the first thing that a
user sees, unless they land on a landing page. But in general,
when you land on a homepage, you're a prospect. You see the
main headline, the main subhead, and the call to action. That
section is what I see being the weakest, which is pretty
critical, because if you think about it, that's the first step.
Then after that, users need to scroll, need to take the next
action. So that's probably the biggest one. Companies struggle
to actually express their positioning and their messaging
strategy in that specific, concise piece of copy.
The second one is probably the balance between features and
benefits. So there's a lot of talk about you should use
benefits and not features, right? But in SaaS, it's a bit
more complex, and what I see is that, yes, benefits have a lot
of value, especially if you're a SaaS or B2B company that's been
writing copy mostly centered on features, you also need to
express that value, what's in it for users. But it's also
important to match that value with the actual technicalities,
the features, the specs that especially more sophisticated,
advanced prospects might be looking for, especially if
they've been using a competitor, or if they are very
sophisticated and higher in awareness about the product that
they are looking for, the problem that they're trying to
solve, they might be looking for specific technical features,
technical names, so you want to emphasize those as well, and
it's all about visual hierarchy.
The probably the third one, it's a lot of companies, especially
those that have a pretty complex and technical product. For
example, I worked with data integration and quality B2B SaaS
enterprise as well a couple of months ago, and they had this
specific problem. They tried to simplify their message rather
than being clear. The problem is, when you simplify message,
you remove the complexity entirely. When you are clear,
you actually make that complexity understandable, which
is totally different, because some, some of your ICPs (Ideal
Customer Profile), your personas, might need that
complexity in your copy. It's just a matter of understanding
how much of it in what places, and kind of balancing it out.
Absolutely, absolutely. Some fantastic points there. And to
your I'll start with the last point. This is part of the
reason, because I do a bit of copywriting myself, but this is
part of the reason why I don't believe in writing messaging,
where it's just like one word like, it's like a one word
sentence. So it's like, it's like, rinse, repeat, redo, or
something like that, right? You know what I mean? Because it's,
oversimplifying something, especially in B2B, that you put
yourself in the customer's shoes, or you wear the
customer's lens, as they say, it's very hard to actually
process, okay. What exactly are you trying to tell me here?
Yeah, exactly. It goes back to the to what I was saying
earlier, about having them unpack. The more concise, the
less context, context you give readers, then the more work they
have to do to kind of deconstruct and impact what
you're saying. So I would probably do something like that,
maybe if you are being funny, if it's in your brand voice, or if
it's a phrase that you've seen a lot of times come up in your
voice of customer data. So if it's something that's common,
commonly said among your prospects or users, I would
probably try, but yeah, it's pretty hard to convince them
when you are being clever like that.
Absolutely, absolutely. I had a couple of follow up questions
for you, Chris, just based on what you've been saying in the
past couple of minutes, the first one, and this is something
I see again and again and again, the classic Call to Action above
the fold where it says, contact us, book a demo. So it's
immediately like asking the person to jump straight into the
call. Right? Your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I would say it doesn't hurt, but don't expect them that
being the first thing that they click on. So expect that you
actually are gonna have more convincing and more and more
argument building to have to do further down the page. So maybe
think of it at the beginning, especially for like a home page
where you still have to introduce your product, what you
do, how you do it. Maybe think of it as kind of like a
secondary step that if people click on it even better, in
which case you have to be ready with the next step. So where are
you reading them? Is that what they might expect after reading
only? Maybe the headline? So you need to keep that into
consideration. And yeah, just expect that you're gonna have to
build more of your argument down the page. And that's probably
gonna be something that they might or might not click on, but
it's not gonna be their final destination. Let's say.
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so that was the first question. The
second question is, and you, you deal with us all the time, I'm
sure, day in, day out, but like you look at I'm not saying
everybody does this, but a lot of SaaS companies do this,
right? You go to the homepage, and you scroll and scroll and
scroll, and you're like, Okay, lot of features still not quite
clear on what they do, right? Then you go back to the top, and
you scroll again, and it's like, still not clear. So why do you
think that is like, why do they... what about some of these
SaaS companies fall into this trap of like, okay, they're just
talking about the product features, but they don't
actually address what the problem is that they're trying
to solve.
Yeah, it's probably going back to the conversation that they
have in their minds, right? The problem is, a lot of these
companies, and we were talking about this before we started
recording, all of these companies, are so immersed in
their own product, in the features, in the latest things
that they are building, that they kind of maybe don't think
about it, or think that what matters to their. Prospects is
just seeing what they're working on and what the latest updates,
latest features, or the differentiated features are for
them. So that's what they project on the page. But it's
it's mostly about starting from a perspective of, okay, what is
the visitor expecting at this specific point in their journey,
and how can I present it to them in the best way possible? So
it's rare that to match that conversation, you start with
features, you probably have to start talking about your problem
or maybe the solution, depending on how aware your visitors are.
So you have to hook them where they are at any point,
Exactly, exactly. Okay, I'm going to move us on to the next
question on what you believe are the untapped opportunities for
B2B SaaS, regarding message and market fit.
Probably one like the one of the lowest hanging fruit that I see,
just because it's in theory, if you build a product out of need,
or you're scratching your own itch, or if you saw that you
could do something better in the market, there's you probably
have a strong point of view. So I think one of the most untapped
opportunities is to strengthen your point of view and how it
comes across in your copy. So to uncover that with my clients, I
ask a lot of questions with the with the team members, typically
marketing, sales, support, customer success, but especially
the founder. So I want to really understand, what do you think
the market is doing wrong, or your customers are doing wrong,
or competitors are doing wrong? What drives you crazy about the
industry. What do you want to see changed? And that kind of
gives me that strong point of view, that that we can inject in
our messaging and weave it throughout all the all the copy
that we write. So that really gives you that differentiation.
And it doesn't take ages to find out. You just need to sit down
with your team members, get it out and try to get it on the page.
Maybe another one could be, as I mentioned, matching that
motivation on the above the fold page. So I always remember Matt
Lerner, is a consultant growth a book called wrote a book called
Growth Levers, and he talks about how to basically think of
your copy in the above the fold page. And he has this very
simple formula. So imagine you're completing the sentence.
I want to XYZ, right? So if you have a product, project
management software, I don't know, you complete the sentence
with I want to double the speed at which you I complete my
projects. That could be your head like double the speed at
which you complete the projects, right? So that puts you already
in much more of a visitor, first prospect, first mindset, that
allows you to write that copy in a way that matches that
motivation when they land on the page. So rather than starting we
do this, or we offer these features, or we are better,
because blah, blah, you know.
So that's that's probably the other easy one, and, yeah,
probably the other one, other one that comes to mind just
because I see a lot of companies not don't do it. It's create
kind of a system or a process to organically start collecting
your research data and make sense of it, just because that's
the research is 70% of my work. But it's also like for marketing
is essential, right? So a lot of companies run research on like
one off projects, maybe every couple of months, randomly or
just because they have a campaign they need to run. What
if you instead create a system that allows you to consistently
collect research, organize it so that you always have it
available, and informs all the activities that you, that you
work on in your team, right? So this is probably the other opportunity.
Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I love it. And we're going to talk
about market research later on in the conversation. But you
talked about this already a little bit when it comes to
message and market fit, what are some of the key pitfalls that
B2B SaaS marketers should avoid, and what should they be doing
instead?
One, one that I see quite often as well, because when I jump
into projects, I do a lot of competitor research, right? So
often I get these documents produced internally by the team,
and a lot of them think of competitor research in terms of
copying competitors, which I think the big mistake, just
because you don't know their goal, you don't know the
strategy and the their audience might also be quite different,
right? So what I recommend them doing instead of copying their
website, messaging or the words that they use. Using try to
deconstruct it and extract from it the things that you can use.
So there's a very easy, simple framework to do this, which is,
I typically divide a page into three areas, actually four core
areas. The first one is, as I mentioned, the motivation,
right? What brings them to the page, you can extract the kind
of language that they're using there the awareness, the level
of awareness that they are addressing. So how much do their
Second layer is the value. What is the value that they this
company is presenting on their website, which is often about
the product, the features and the benefits, the
prospects know about it, how sophisticated they are, and
differentiators. You can start noting those down and try to
categorize and organize that value.
The third one is the anxiety. So how are they addressing the
anxiety for prospects. And by anxiety, I mean the objections
that they have, the kind of insecurities, the questions, and
that's all social proof can be testimonials, videos, reviews,
but also just an easy one is actually especially if you have
kind of a like a complex onboarding, or maybe you're
sending a mix of services if you explain your process or what
happens after they click on the call to action, how can you set
better expectations?
All of that is about the addressing this anxiety, and the
final one is the call to action. So what types of call to actions
do they use? Where are they sending people? Do you see that
they are sending them to the pricing page? Maybe because they
think their prospects need to see pricing, or maybe they have
complex plan tiers and all of that. So try to deconstruct your
competitors rather than copying them. If I'm speaking with
marketing, I would try to tell them to sync a bit more often
with sales and try to be present in those sales conversations,
especially if you have a sales led company, sales led product.
And if you have those sales conversations recorded, try to
watch as many of them, just because they're super helpful,
you can see those objection. You can actually start understanding
the language that prospects are using, what kind of value they
find the most helpful or valuable, and especially when it
comes to switching from switching from a competitor, so
sales, but also the other thing, which not a lot of people do, is
sync with the product team, and that's because, in the end,
syncing with all teams, it's always going to be helpful. But
that's based on the language of words that they use.
also, and I've been and I've worked as a UX (User Experience)
lead, so I used to watch a lot of usability tests, usability
studies and research, and I found the value of actually
studying how people use the product, where they stumble on
how they react to kind of your feature. All of that is still
super helpful in informing not only how you build the product,
but also how you market the product. So I would definitely,
yeah, try to convince both marketers, sales and product, to
kind of work together a bit more. And that's probably,
that's probably another one, yeah.
Okay, okay, okay, some, some really great points. And I came
up with a couple of follow up questions, because, you know,
why not? Right? Like to the point about call to action and
CTAs, just from maybe your own experience. How many would you
recommend there be on a website? Because I've seen websites where
there's only one call to action, and I've seen one where there's,
I'm not exaggerating, there's like, six or seven, and then
it's like, yeah. What's the general rule of thumb? How many
should you have?
So as a rule, I would always recommend to have at least one
primary call to action and a secondary call to action. But
also it's important to make that differentiation, because a lot
of companies, they have two call to action, but they visually,
they don't differentiate them. So it becomes hard for prospects
to understand where they need to go, how and so on. So typically,
primary secondary call to action. So if you have a pricing
page, send them to the pricing page or sign up, and then the
other call to action could be a contact, contact page or sign
up, or actually pricing, right? So primary secondary, but then
it depends on the page as well. So if you're if you're talking
about a home page, then I might also have a couple of other
secondary calls to action that lead specific personas to the
next page they need to visit and but those call to action, rather
than being bottom, maybe they could be just text links so
they're even a bit less noticeable, but still access.
Table for users, and you can send them, I don't know if you
have multiple personas or different use cases, you can
send them to those internal pages where they can expand on
what they already what they just saw on the on the homepage, and
go deeper and deeper into their own awareness funnel and until
they actually persuade and convinced.
Okay, fantastic, fantastic. And here comes the second question,
because you were talking about having conversations with
marketing, having conversations with sales and products, and I'm
sure you've come across this before, because I know I have
what have you ended up finding that each group or each
department has conflicting points of view or perspectives.
How do you how do you deal with that, in terms of like,
developing the copy, if, if marketing is saying red and then
sales is saying white and then product is saying no, it's
definitely green.
Yeah, my, my best advice is always go back to your market.
So that's why, for every project, I always do my
research, even if my client tells me, Oh yeah, we've already
done customer interviews or we have this survey data for like,
from like three years ago, even if it's recent, I always tell
them I have my process. This is what we need to do, and I always
trust the research first. Also, yeah, obviously I still want to
get that internal perspective, so I speak with everyone inside
the team, but at the same time, then I let my research speak.
And I find often that when you tell them this is what we found,
especially because they've never done that kind of research, they
tend to trust you and to lead them, right? So that's also very
good way to bring them all together, and that's a very big
part of my job and work as well. It's not only writing creating
messaging strategy that writing the copy, it's also bringing
these teams together and aligning them on things.
Absolutely, absolutely, you know, I just realized when I
said, okay, they want red and they want white and they want
green, I was like, hey, that's the Italian flag, isn't it?
Yes.
I wasn't planning on doing that. But, like,
Part intended.
Okay, you were talking a lot about marketing and also about
conducting research. I'm gonna say so in many cases, marketers
spend a lot of time conducting research, and often they end up
not really knowing what to do with it. So just from your own
experience, how can B2B SaaS marketers finally leverage and
make good use of this, whatever you want to call it, scattered
or abandoned research.
Yeah. So the way that I see, I see research has kind of imagine
an iceberg, right? So you have the outside surface of the
iceberg. The first layer that's that, to me, is kind of the it's
kind of the layer that tells you what users say, the language,
and that basically includes everything that you already have
inside the company, which probably includes sales,
conversation transcripts, customer support chats, or you
can access reviews, either competitors or yours, or what
else looking at competitors messaging, or maybe you have
voice of customer for previous conversations. So all of that is
kind of research, the the surface layer that tells you
what users say and how, what kind of language, if you don't
have anything of as far as research, I would say, start
with that. So go on review websites, start collecting some
reviews, collect those sales conversations, or at least start
recording those so that you have some of the language and you can
use it and mirror it in your copy.
The second layer, which is already under the water of the
iceberg. In the iceberg, it's the structural layer, and that's
more of the UX user experience layer. And maybe this comes from
my user experience past as well, but I love to match and cross
reference the insights that I get for messaging against the
the actions that users actually take on websites. I see their
experience on a website is actually like a journey. They
are on the website. They yes, they need to understand the
words, but they also need to consume them in a way that's
frictionless. So it's a lot about creating a clear flow of
the copy they write of the pages. So from one call to
action to the other, clear visual hierarchy of the
different sections. So all of that, and to collect that data,
I typically look at heat maps, user interaction, data
analytics. I might run usability testing on a website. Yeah,
those are probably the biggest ways and easy ways. So if you
don't have anything, start tracking those user interaction
data with something like Hotjar, for example, and your analytics,
so understanding bounce rate, time on page and all of those.
The final layer, which is probably the most important,
even though it's kind of the hardest to extract and to reach.
It's the deep layer, which is tells you why users or prospects
act. Why do they make those decisions? And this goes back
to, as I was saying, understanding their decision
making process. So this is all the qualitative data that you
get from customer interviews or customer survey, qualitative
serving, I mean quantitative here. So qualitative surveys,
extracting positioning and messaging strategy from your
competitors website. So the next step, after you've kind of
extracted the language, all of that tells you why they act,
right? So when you understand and have deconstructed their
decision making process, then you match it with their action
on the website and the words that they use, then you bring
everything together, and that gives you copy that converts.
Sounds so simple, right?
Yeah, it's two, three months of work when you say it sounds a
bit simple.
Absolutely no, no. I mean, that was really a great way to unpack
that. And I, you know, I've seen that time and time again, how
some marketing teams are almost researching, yeah, you can say
aimlessly, but it's also because they don't quite understand,
like, well, what is this for? Right? And perhaps it's also
because they haven't had that conversation with the customers
directly, so they don't quite understand what the challenges
are, right?
Yeah, and it's crazy to see when we do customer interviews. So
Yeah, especially if you already have customers that are, you
for example, for the best example, one of the latest
projects, we did customer interviews, and the interviews
that we do are jobs to be done interviews so we understand the
progress, the before, during and after, making the buying
decision, if you think about about it, those interviews
actually match almost perfectly the structure of a great
testimonial. So what the after? After looking at a couple of
those interviews, our clients told us, Hey, guys, could you
actually record some of those interviews in video that so that
we can use them as testimonials. And that tells you a lot about
like, they've never done those, and it's such a like, low
hanging fruit, but, yeah, super valuable, both for the insights
that you get and the social proof.
know, they're happy with what you do, or they're, they're
happy with the product, and they've, they've, they've
renewed the contract. And so that nature, right?
Yeah, and it doesn't take, like people, maybe they avoid doing
that, or are a bit resistant in doing that, because they think,
Oh, we have to interview, speak to customer, customers, when
actually, in theory, you need at least five, ideally seven to 10
interviews, and you already get like 80% of the insights that
you need, so
Exactly. Okay, so, Chris, in our previous conversation, you told
me you had this secret superpower now to read your
customers minds. But jokes aside, what do you think
marketers can do to better understand their customers? So
in terms of things that you already talked about, like, you
know, your their behaviors, their their motivations, their
preferences and their objections? What can they do?
Yeah, if we had to kind of summarize it into like an
actions plan or of like, clear steps, I would say first align
your teams inside the company, because that's the first step.
If you're not aligned that everybody is going to say
different things, and you can't make that research work for you
unless you're all aligned on a single goal and are clear on
what you're doing.
The other one is to run those jobs to be done interviews, so
understand that before, during and after the buying process for
customers, which means asking them questions on what were they
doing, or what was going on in their life when they started
looking for a solution, or what alternatives were they
considering at the time, when they when they were considering
you as well? Did they try other solutions, alternatives? And
also, can you find out whether or not it wasn't only about
direct competitors, but also other ways of doing things,
maybe the status quo. It's an entirely different thing that
you had no idea about, right? So that's important to find out,
and when it came time to actually picking you, why did
they pick you? What made them choose you? Or other alternative
solutions now they're that they're using you. What are they
able to do that they weren't able to do before, right? Is
there anything surprising, anything unexpected, that they
found value using you and and how would they describe you if
they were to recommend you? That tells you a lot about the kind
of the their perception of what you do, who you are. Another
good question that I like to ask, it's, what big problem does
this company solve for you? And that typically gives you a lot
of language that you can use for that value proposition on the
above the fold of the page.
Once you've done those interviews, I would try to
understand that switching, those switching costs, right? Because
we need to address them in the anxiety section. So how can we
make their switching costs, especially if you're talking
about B2B, where they are probably already using a
solution, and try to understand that that conversation that
they're already having inside their head when they land on the
page, maybe they're using another solution. So a couple of
easy ways that you can use and and Joanna Wiebe at Copyhackers
talks a lot about these. You can run thank you page survey. So
after they buy, for example, run a quick survey where you ask
them, okay, what? What do you plan on doing now that you are
sign up or something like that, or if you want to understand the
before state, you can ask them was what was going on that make
you that made you choose our solution, right? So you can map
that before and after and bridge the gap. Or you can another
quick one. If you have the traffic, you can run those
website surveys or polls. So the little box that appears on a
page, especially if it's either a home page, if you want to
understand their level of awareness. So asking questions
super easy, bulleted questions like What brings you to the page
today or what best describes you, so you start understanding
the personas and how much they know. What do they know about
your solution or the market? Or also, you can run those on a
pricing page, so if maybe, after a couple seconds, 6,10 seconds,
you can ask them, Are there any questions that have not been
answered on the page for you? And maybe at least a couple
ones, and see if you're about to find out what's missing, so that
you can add it to the page. So aligning teams, running jobs to
be done, kind of research and try to trying to find out that
what the conversation that they have inside their minds when
they land on the page through these different surveys and
strategies as well.
Fantastic tips, and I really hope that the listeners are
going to be taking notes like I am doing right now, because this
is going to be really useful to them. So thanks again for that,
Chris. Okay, so here comes the soapbox question, a status quo
in your area of expertise, and I think you have a lot, but I'm
just asking for one, a status quo in your area of expertise
that you passionately disagree with. And why let the Italian
and you come out now.
Totally. So I will be a bit current as well, so I'll go with
something that's on the minds of a lot of people, including me,
and even at the for the risk of making it look like it's gonna
make my job fail. I'm saying that the status quo, it's that
AI can't write good copy, and I actually say that it's possible,
because I've been doing it, not basically to replace myself, but
as a kind of like, like a tool, for the past year and a half or
two. So it all depends, obviously, on your either if you
say that you can't write copy, you're either using it
incorrectly or you didn't do the research and the strategy that
goes before actually writing the copy, because without those, no
AI can really help you, right? AI has knowledge of the entire
Internet. So if you ask it to write, write me a landing page,
or even if you use a mega prompt without research, actually real
research and your own strategy, then AI is just going to write
you like a generic jargon copy that doesn't really work. So
learn to use it and use it a lot, I would say. So I think
Ethan Mollick is a researcher on AI, and he talks all about,
well, I remember, like there's a certain amount of hours I don't
know that, or even, like the 10,000 hours of expertise, like
putting those 10,000 hours with AI and then tell me that it can
write, cannot write, copyright for that, and also put the
foundations in place so the research and your own strategy
and. Then you'll see that with the actual right frameworks and
systems, I can actually write copy for you, or at least, like
a very good first draft. Then you jump in and edit.
Whew, controversial man. Hot, hot, hot, fresh out of the oven.
No, but, you know, you you mentioned a lot of things where,
where I would tend to agree with that, right? Like, because I've
spoken to a lot of people. I mean, I myself, like I said, I'm
also doing copywriting. I've spoken to a lot of people that
are also copywriters, like yourself, and they're all
generally saying that they are, they are embracing the use of AI
in some shape or form, to your point, right? It's, it's not,
it's not that you completely like, like, rejected. There are
so many aspects of AI which I would tend to agree, it actually
helps speed up the work. It helps expedite the work, right?
Because I think one of the things that I'm sure this is,
this is the same challenge you're having. It's, it's the
challenge of just the amount, the volume of content that you
need to produce, right?
A volume of content and also the volume of research that you need
to analyze, right? Luckily, I could say, I started in an era
where AI wasn't a thing. So I did all the manual process. I
did everything myself, and that probably builds some kind of
muscle or intuition that's still helping me, but I will probably
never go back like it's so much easier, especially if you
already have your own process, and your use of AI is grounded
in your own process, then I think it's 10 times better.
Correct, correct. It's not directly related. But Chris, can
you imagine, what were we doing before there was a transcription
software for like...
Yeah, what I was doing? I hired a VA that used to transcribe.
The question is, how long did that take? That took at least...
Yeah, exactly, yeah, days. And you also had to pay as well.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, so here comes the bonus question.
And for the audience that's listening to this in the audio,
I'm gonna apologize in advance, but I'm just gonna say that
Chris is a fan of like, I'm gonna say body ink. So I think
the bonus question is, if you were gonna get your next tattoo,
where would it be, and what would it be of and why? Because
I think for people that have tattoos, each each tattoo, each
visual, has some kind of like meaning that's directly
connected to something in their life.
Yeah, so I already know the answer to this, because I've
been thinking about it for the past year, okay, I've just been
a bit of a like, like, a pause for from tattooing. But I wanted
to do here. I still have this blank spot, you know.
Okay, so, so he said he showed me his left arm, right?
Yeah. So I wanted to do the Dodge Challenger logo, because I
own a Dodge Challenger in ck, which is a nightmare, but
another time, but it's my my dream car. Always wanted it, and
it also signifies the, I don't know, the challenge in general,
which is always like, I like to embrace challenges, whether it's
through fitness or work, through understanding and learning about
new technologies as well. I'd like the challenge. So, yeah,
it's probably going to be my next, next tatoo.
Fantastic, fantastic. And just for the benefit of the audience,
what's the color of your car?
It's a black challenger.
Black, okay, good color. Good color. Chris, this has been a
great conversation. I mean, so many useful insights, so many
actionable tips. Thanks again for coming on the show and
sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners.
Please, quick introduction to yourself and how people can get
in touch with you, especially if they're struggling with their
copy.
Yeah. My name is Chris. I run Conversion Alchemy, which is how
I define it now, because it's changed, it's a messaging and
conversion experience optimization agency, and that
goes into all that we talked about right today, like
experience, copy, messaging. I work with B2B SaaS companies.
I'm a recovering software engineer turned copywriter. I'm
into drums, I'm into meditation, into muscle cars, and you can
find me on my website, https://conversionalchemy.net/
or on LinkedIn. Mostly I'm on LinkedIn, nerding out about this
stuff and sharing things.
Fantastic, and we're going to drop those links in the show
notes so that they can reach out to you directly. So...
Awesome. Thank you so much, Christian.
Yeah, thanks and take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.
You too.
Thank you. Bye.